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EPISODE 11 – Steve Linney

Optimising Website Performance Using Psychology and Design Insights

A major challenge when trying to attract new customers via your website is you’re relying on a digital medium to try and spark a human connection. 

However, it is possible to hack into human psychology to influence the behaviour of your website visitors and get more people to take the actions you want them to take. 

In this episode, I’m joined by freelance growth marketer and web design specialist, Steve Linney, who talks about how the layout, images, colours and language you use on your websites can make a massive impact on your conversion rates. 

In this episode, we discuss:

  • Why you should avoid talking about mememe
  • The role of psychology in web design
  • Optimisation tactics and approaches
  • How certain design elements can make a huge difference to where our eyes are drawn on a web page
  • Tools you can use to help implement and track your optimisations
  • How you can run low-risk experiments before making a major change 

 

CONNECT

 

OTHER

Towards the end of the episode, we also discussed Steve’s latest project https://www.thetryb.com/ which aims to help people explore a mix of well-being experiences, including breathwork. Steve has also provided a useful resource about how Breathwork can make you a better marketer: https://www.stevelinney.com/blog/how-meditation-can-make-you-a-better-marketer/ 

 

LISTEN

Episode Transcript
Episode transcript

  📍 📍 In this episode, I’m joined by growth marketer and web design specialist, Steve Linney, where we discuss how website psychology can influence visitor behavior, along with tips and tools you can use to optimise your website’s performance. Steve, great to have you on the podcast. thank you for having me.

It’s yes, it’s good to be on board, especially early days of the new podcast. So yeah, fun and exciting times ahead. Brilliant. Thank you. Steve, for everyone in the audience’s benefit, can you just start at the beginning, describe your career and your journey to becoming a freelancer.

Yeah. Okay, that’s a good question. I’m gonna try and keep it as potted as possible. But I suppose my journey towards a freelancer is I’ve always wanted to be my own boss essentially, and when I have worked in house, it’s either gone really well because I’ve worked with a really good team or it’s been really bad because it’s just not clicked as well.

And I think part of that has been want to do my own thing and kind of being a bit of a kind of, going against the grain about how someone thinks I might do sometimes. I’ve got strong opinions from that side. so working for myself began, straight after university when I was running club nights and that was, very kind of my introduction to marketing from that side of things.

Even though I wouldn’t have called myself a marketer, I was definitely a club promoter and a DJ, it’s. It’s exactly what I was doing then, and it’s exactly what I’m doing now with my kind of free lads clients who have got nothing to do with club promotion. It’s finding the benefits to your customer and making it as clear and possible to them so they can come and enjoy your night or enjoy your website and your product.

so that’s the start of it. I went in house and worked for a long time down here in Brighton with a company called Learning People, which is a great time to get to know the city as well, but also really get to work for a nice big team and a lovely group of people and really hone my kind of marketing skills, which were a bit I suppose maybe rough and ready, I’m not a trained marketer.

I did film and television at university, but ended up doing DJing more than I did the film and television. I think it was good to really grind your skills and a team, a demanding team that kind of wanted you to get different places. and then from leaving there, I moved into doing kind of freelance stuff on myself and that’s, be gone.

Nicely for the last few years and I’ve got a nice varied group of clients who have been with me for a fair bit of time that can arrange from SaaS startups through to well established kind of HR platforms. And I also work with a few kind of local independent people as well and I like to work on the alternative side.

So I’ve worked with people who work with transpersonal psychology as well because they can have more alternative modalities, something that’s really a kind of passion that I have. Yeah. Thank you for that. I saw on your LinkedIn profile, one of the roles you mentioned, at Learning Pool. effectively, you were running, you were head of marketing there, so you were running the marketing function for that organization, and they’re not a small organization.

No, there was, to be honest, there was two companies with learning. There was Learning People and Learning Pool. So Learning People are the ones that are in Brighton and they, that’s where we started. There was like six of us in a cupboard. And now that’s, it’s a massive multinational organisation and I was there for that first five, six year journey, just seeing it grow from, being unknown entities through to, a well respected, award winning, business.

Yeah, so the reason I mention it is I think a lot of People would have the misconception that if they’re hiring a marketing freelancer, they’re probably going to be hiring them at quite a junior level. so they’re hiring the people that are going to be doing the doing. And it’s the, can you, I don’t know, start sending out some social media posts or can you design a flyer for us?

And that’s absolutely fine. There’s nothing wrong with that. with, that process of outsourcing, that’s that sort of work. But. I think the piece that’s often ignored is it’s possible to get people who’ve got a real deep experience at a strategic level in marketing as well. Yeah, absolutely. I think to be honest, that’s, that’s been the thing that’s been my, benefit, is having those kind of years of experience, but years of experience in different areas as well, especially when you manage a team, and you’ve got you’ve got your own freelancers you’re managing or kind of agencies, you have to know these different areas.

you don’t need to be a specialist in them, but you have to know them really so you can manage them and then Make sure you get the best out of it. So then when you’re on the other side, you understand what that team needs from you as well. So you understand it from both sides.

It’s a good way to really get to know what your customer wants rather than just pitching up with, ideas that just popped out of nowhere, but I think there’s definitely a case as well with freelancers where you can get people that are on the junior level, which is fantastic as well.

But, as you say, the board. experience you’ve got, the kind of the, I suppose more adaptive you can be to an organization. And a lot of the companies I work with are start up early doors, but they don’t have a team. And I come in and bring my kind of expertise to just help them push through the door, push through the barriers that they’ve got, and then eventually bring their own team in and I’ll move on from that side of things.

So it’s a nice kind of way to get experience team without spending a lot of money on recruitment. Yeah, makes perfect sense. Thank you. And thinking back to your clients, then, what challenges are they typically facing when they approach you? And when they pick up the phone to you, what is it they’re trying to solve for?

same as whatever else is, it’s growth and just revenue as well, but the, difficult thing they’ve got is they don’t have a base, of customers or if they do, it’s very small and they don’t really know what the messaging is or what their kind of ideal customer profile looks like.

So it just working through their assumptions and kinda get some really grounded in place that we can, work on. a lot of the time they kinda have a website that. It’s just, it’s a page, it’s a website. It’s not particularly good. So it could be on Squarespace or Wix was one of the ones.

So it’s bringing them into something that’s a bit more professional and styled nicely, but also kinda optimized. So it kinda converts as well. But just helping them kinda really own their brand in a digital space. some people might be doing well offline, but online is a different kind of beast.

Okay. And so let’s say, New prospective customer picks up the phone to you, they decide, actually Steve’s the person that we want to work with. What’s the process that you would take them through to make sure, particularly with the website, that they end up with a website that’s going to work for them?

Yeah, step one is an audit, you’ve got to look at where they are at the moment and then just really break it apart, to a certain extent and then look at the areas that kind of, is a low hanging fruit. What’s going to be the easy wins for them? what’s going to be the best of their budget?

Because a lot of the time with startups or smaller organizations. The budget is thin, so you’ve got to make sure it goes in the right places. So there’s no point throwing everything at it at once, even if it might need it. sometimes you might need to space it out over a period of months, even a year or longer.

so it’s just working out what their goals are in the short term, medium term and long term, and then how you can best benefit them to get to those goals. Yeah, that makes sense. It’s the kernel of any strategy, isn’t it? It’s an assessment of what their current resources are and where they need to be and then filling in the gaps between them.

Yeah, exactly. Just, it’s about trying to be flexible but, you’ve got your skill sets and you don’t want to go too far outside those as well. You don’t want to promise the earth and all that side of things as well because as a freelancer I think, especially if you’re early days as a freelancer, it’s oh yeah, that’s the job, I’ll do it.

Even though you don’t really have the skills to do it, as best you could do. So it’s best to just stick, to what you know and what you know how to work, and then do the best for the client is what you can do. Yeah. Steve, when we were speaking beforehand, I know one of the things that you’re quite passionate about and it comes up in your LinkedIn posts quite a lot as well is, around applying principles of psychology to the marketing, the design of websites or other collateral that you might create for a client.

Do you want to just start off talking about how you might apply that and the benefits of doing so? yeah, so on the psychology aspect is something that’s, it’s been an interest of mine for a long time. As how does the mind work, what makes us tick and all that sort of thing.

And when it comes to the website, the psychology side of it is more. Thinking about how you can create something that is pleasing to a user, and that could be from the basics of how well it looks, but also, what’s the story it’s telling? are you really getting to what the crux of what the customer really wants to talk about or what the customer?

What problem they’ve got and how you can solve them from that side of things. So I suppose psychology is really a capsule term for user experience, customer experience and just making sure that you’re delivering as good a content as what you can do and content, that’s everything from the color of your logo through to the videos that you’re producing as well, it’s just about making sure.

You concentrate again, it’s backing up benefits to the customer, but also, there’s quite a, it’s quite easy for people to do, I used to call it, it’s like that vocal warmup practice, the me side of things. use that as a, say to people, you’re me, meing your website because all you’re doing, you’re talking about me, I provide this service, does that, this widget will do this, but you’re not flipping it on its head to work out why people need it in the first place, so think about what the benefits of that widget is to the individual rather than just what the widget can do.

I think there’s, by the way, I totally agree with everything you’ve just said, but I think there’s a nice balance that needs to be struck sometimes because I’ve certainly had conversations with people where, they’ve taken that advice to heart and every time they’re talking about anything to do with the business, it’s about it shoehorning in a benefit to the audience and it, doesn’t feel natural.

And I think it’s also robbing the viewer of making that connection themselves or assuming or treating them like a child. When of course they know that the reason that they’re buying this particular software is because it’s going to make them more, efficient, or save them time, or whatever it is. You don’t need to tell them every single time that you talk about your software that’s the benefit to them.

But I think you’re absolutely right, there is a benefit of talking about the benefits to your prospective audience when it’s appropriate to do And just, even if you’re not explicitly talking about the benefits. Being conscious of the things that actually make them tick and the things that they want to achieve so that you can highlight that in certain ways.

you, your point about, sorry, you carry on. Just because what you’re saying that, yeah, 100 percent on there as well. the thing I think what you need to do is balance. It’s like everything in life. It’s the ying and the yang side of things. you can be very kind of benefit focused on the homepage and landing pages, but people want to get to nitty gritty as well, so you, but you don’t, need to give them the detail straight off, you feed them through the website as well.

So they get as much of that information as what they want to. keeping on with the benefits in the appropriate order. That’s right. Yeah. Yeah telling the story and just want to Go back to the point you raised about the color schemes as well because I’m funny enough I’m working with a client at the moment and they’ve got really Distinctive and bold brand and it was absolutely appropriate for them at the time when they came up with that because they were a scrappy startup and they were trying to appeal to other scrappy startups.

It felt punky and it was, it worked for them more and more. They’re trying to pitch to enterprise size clients and often very frequently. In fact, the feedback they get from opportunities where they’ve been discounted is we just can’t take you seriously. Okay. They’re losing, that element of trust.

And I know the founders of that business are getting very frustrated. It’s not, it’s obviously a solvable problem. We can change the branding, but their frustration is. Why on earth would a business be making a decision about this based on the color of the software that they’re going to be using? And it’s, a very logical question to be asking, but people don’t operate on logic, do they?

no, and it’s that kind of thing where, you know, if you think about just colors, and it’s all, they ignite a little stimulus inside your head every time you see something. if you see yellow and red kind of packed in together, you know it’s gonna be a discount website. whereas it’s something like, Apple’s a real good example.

You just have pure white, now it’s gone to pure black. So it’s very kind of simple toning. so the, I think maybe what you’re What your client needs to do is maybe simplify things without going to corporate beige or corporate blue, that kind of really dull side of it. They still need to keep their edge to what they want to do, because it’s, it’s their brand.

They can’t just satisfy it from one customer as well. sometimes it’s good just if that customer doesn’t like your website, they’re not right for you. You can’t win them all. They don’t like your colors. Exactly. You can’t chase them all as well. That’s a dangerous thing. but.

Again, it’s that kind of yin and yang. I suppose if they want to move into that enterprise side of things, they do need to find a balance between what’s good to appeal to more kind of Dull corporate market as well, because I think the thing with the enterprise, the bigger companies you’ve got to realize is, you sell it to one person and they’ve probably got to sell it to six other people in the business.

So it’s not just that one person looking at the brands that you can need to satisfy. It’s a whole host of boring meetings you’ve probably got to get through. And end result. In a B2B context often the decision is the least controversial one. That’s the outcome. yeah, play it safe.

And at some point you’ll, as the person who’s led a particular project to buy some software, you’re probably going to have to be presenting to the board or your boss will be at some point. And if that board is quite conservative and maybe not up for, I don’t know, working with scrappy startup punky type organizations, they’ll be.

Highly attuned and asking some very difficult questions, of you as to why you made that decision. Yeah, but what you could do is you could help them through that process as well with some supporting content. So here’s a pack of info that will help appease your boring CEO. Yes. Yeah. because I’ve been in house, I’ve definitely had to push certain things sometimes that people haven’t.

Yeah, absolutely. But it is an important point, isn’t it? Because ultimately, with, websites in particular, we’re trying to build relationships and we’re trying to come across as a trustworthy service or provider of anything, to somebody that we probably haven’t met. the first time they land on the website, they probably haven’t met, you in person.

And that is a challenge. How can you apply psychological principles to achieving that? Actually one thing to do is go back, read a book called The Monkey, I think it’s Chip Paradox, by Steven Peters, and he really talks about the monkey brain and how that works. And you get understanding how much there’s this little, primordial thing that reacts before you do inside your heads.

And one of the main things that we react to is, eyesight, so when you as we’re talking right now, I’m looking at your eyes and you’re looking at mine, and there was a book called Webs of Influence by Natalie Nahe that I’ve mentioned a lot over the years, which was a seminal book for me, and it it’s, It was packed full of kind of examples of good psychology, bad psychology, how you can move things around and what you should be doing, what you shouldn’t be doing, and it was light bulbs popping all over the place for me.

And one thing that stuck in mind was this little example of an A B test, which I’m just going to share my screen now so you can see what it looks like. And this A B test was an advert for some nappies. on the left hand side, you have a baby, looking outwards, and then we’ve got the kind of call to action here, and Straight away you can see everybody’s looking at the eyes and not really making it over to the call to action.

They’re not really making it over to the nappies. So how effective advert was? Probably, probably not that much. Now the B test on it, and keep in mind this is the advert that was inside a magazine. it wasn’t on a website, but it still, it still works the same. So the baby’s flipped to the side.

People still start, they’re using that left hand side thing. See the eyes, see the baby’s looking over at the call to action. And then they make their way down through the copy and through the nappies. So this one is going to be far more effective than the, what the previous one was. so I could have adapted this at the time of learning people.

And I’ve went, I think for a year, I went a bit mad. Maybe two years and using this all the time. this is a heat map of, let’s see, can I zoom in a bit here? oh, there we go, of one of our old landing pages, so don’t, have a go at the design. The design’s about 10 years old and it’s not as cool as it would do these days.

But, you can see people starting on the left hand side on the red, they’re going towards the eye and then they’re going straight to the call, call to action side of things. And then as we can see they’re, on this other one, they’re doing the exact same thing. I, down, call to action, and straight down as well.

So this kind of made conversion rate go through the roof. Essentially, I think it was going from, I don’t know, say it was 10 percent a page through, it went up to about 20%, 25%, maybe 30 some campaigns. Yeah. and, part of that as well was, We were changing the, you can see here as well actually, going back to messaging and psychology.

we were talking about three IT courses at this point, which was, fine, but then we swapped it to, how much money someone could earn after doing some training. And that was far more emotive to someone than, and it was more of a psycho, positive psychological push. Yeah.

Just saying you can get this course for free. It was more money in your pocket is a much more of a, an emotive issue. yeah, so that’s one of the tools. I think I talked about Icon thing, which is looking at more the AI side. as I’ve seen the design beforehand, this is a kind of a good example.

so a new project of mine is tribe, which is going to be, I can have a wellness portal. We’re going to start off in Brighton and it’s help people, especially men over 40. I know it’s hard to believe that I’m over 40. You’re in good company. No, I’m too close to 50 actually, it’s scary. but so the, what we’ve got here is the kind of the, staging site for the platform.

And, at the moment design is very the current website is very, it’s just a blog. Now we’re going to move through to being a bit more this is what you’re going to get from the directory side of things. and obviously. After doing this for years, you get experience doing it. It comes second nature to you.

But it’s always good to use a tool like this to help reaffirm what you’re talking about. and straight away you can see here, it predicts that the people looking at the H1, the H2 and then they’re going towards the call to action side of things. So to me, that’s to me, that says job done. So it’s a nice little tool that can just helps push in the right direction.

another tool that I’ve used a lot over the years, is Visual Website Optimizer. Ah, yeah. Yeah, so I was looking at this recently. Visual Website Optimizer is great in that it will That’s probably not the best place to look. I’ll stop sharing that actually. They are very good at doing your AB tests, but also kinda generating your heat maps and you don’t need a ton of people for the heat maps to really work.

visual website optimizer, they did the same thing as iqu where they were actually quite reasonable. Then they went stupidly expensive despite had to never, we look at this again this morning and there is a starter, which is free and that gives you your AB testing, your split AB testing, and then all your heat map side of things as well.

this is something I’d recommend kinda using and, There’s a big thing about marketing where, marketing is an art form. It is, but it’s also at the core of it, it’s the science and you need this data to really drive you through. Now, with a lot of the startups I work with, it’s still very gut instincts because you don’t get the, the, throughfall, you need a lot of people for A B testing.

But with tools we can get your heat map or even like the iQuant where you can get an idea of what’s going to look like beforehand. It helps to take the guesswork out of it. you’re still going to have a level of guesswork because even when you’re doing your A B testing strategy, you’re still guessing what’s going to be best next, but you’ve got this pile of data to help push you in the right direction.

Yeah. Thank you for, sharing that for people who, are listening to the podcast rather than watching the video, just to describe what was on the screen, there were examples of screenshots on the screen with different imagery. Sometimes it was the main character featuring on the, homepage or, the landing page looking either directly at the camera or looking at the call to action.

or sometimes it was just a different structure of the layout of the page, but the differences that made to where people’s eyes were tracking on the screen. Was absolutely stark and you would expect that and you gave some examples of how that then translated into an improvement in the click through rate or completion of the call to action.

something I did notice in those examples, I didn’t recall seeing any sort of trust building factors like client logos or, or testimonials in the line of sight around the call to action. I don’t know if you’ve seen any benefits of including those in the past or whether they’re actually going to come later on.

Yeah. yeah, definitely the, the kind of the, so the kind of, social signals are fantastic, Yeah. It’s it’s the main driver essentially, but, it is a difficult one as well. ’cause these days we’re kinda used to seeing a lot of, reviews and, We only ever show the really good ones as well, you don’t always show, you don’t show the negative reviews on site. So it’s really important to use something like Trustpilot, which is like a third party, these things can be gamed, nothing’s perfect, but it makes it a little bit more trustworthy.

Or, kind of Google reviews, that sort of thing, if it’s someone who sits offside your site. but yeah, definitely, as many kind of human testimonies you can get, the better, Because, as much as you talk about how great your brand is, it’s good for other people to do it. and if you can get, especially on your social side of things.

your customers, create a lot of the content. It makes things easier as well. yeah, you can see, people can see it being used in the real world. and there’s one company I work with, who they do electric bikes. So actually seeing people out about and doing fantastic things with their bikes, makes their life easier because it just shows you how passionate people are with, with the bike and what you can do with it.

Yeah. great. Thank you. And the examples that you shared on the screen, some of them were. In terms of the work required to actually achieve the change in design of flipping the image of a baby from looking directly at the camera to looking at the call to action, that’s probably not a massive amount of work to change.

There are other projects where maybe, in fact maybe the client I was speaking about earlier, it might be that they consider a company wide rebrand and that can be months and months of work and costs thousands, hundreds of thousands, if you’re a large organisation, millions of pounds to do. Before making that leap into doing something like that, are there ways that you can test these changes just to see are we going to completely balls up the conversion rate on our website or is it actually okay?

Is it even going to improve how things, perform? Yeah, there’s definitely ways to test, there’s definitely ways to get it wrong and, there’s ways to try and get it right as well and, it’s that always be testing philosophy, there’s, you should always, again, it’s difficult to start up, it’s more established companies, I’ve got, the people come to site, it’s easier to do, but if there’s always something on the go that you’re testing a little bit.

now, when it comes to the bigger changes, what you can do with those, you can maybe test out on the landing page or just the homepage, you can just send 25 percent or 50 percent of traffic to that and get an understanding of what that’s going to be, that might only be for, like a few days or a week, depending on how much traffic you have.

you’ll see this as well. Google, for example, they did this all the same. I was looking at Google images the other day and it was a totally different kind of layout to what it was previously. And then it’s back to how it was. So they’re also just testing for that day to see how the new layout went as well, so I think when it comes to sweeping changes.

I think you have to be pretty brave sometimes as well, test out something that you think, oh, that’s okay. This is an easy option. give that a test. Test something out you think is a little bit out there and You can test them all against each other and just see how you get there.

So with a more established brand like that, I think you’ve got to take a bit of time just to work out who you want to be as a business. how do you want your brand to look as well? Do you want to cave in to the pressure of not being as crazy? Or do you want to maybe make that crazy slightly different?

and Yeah, testing, trying to get some real people looking at it. you can actually, it doesn’t have to all be through kind of heat maps. Actually, bums on seats as well. Try and get as many opinions as what you can do. another client we’re going through a colour change as well.

We’re making it quite different and we’re trying to appeal more to a female audience. me as a kind of male designer and the team are all kind of guys, we’re not the best people to say it, we get my wife, my sister, everyone involved. Does this green look nice?

Yeah. does this appeal to you more than that kind of nice black yellow we’ve got for men beforehand? yeah, test, get as many people to see, get a plan in place and then just iterate as you go along. And your point about just get as many people to see, if you’re working for a startup and you’re not getting a ton of traffic to your website, do you think it’s appropriate to, again, just going back to the idea of maybe investing in a brand, maybe it’s the first brand that you’re coming up with if you haven’t launched yet.

Infinite numbers of options available to you as to what the style could be of a logo or the color scheme that you’re going to apply across your brand. Could you test that using display ads on platforms like LinkedIn or even the Google Display Network and just try different versions and how well does Say things like click through rate of an ad translating to the likely performance later on a website.

Yeah, so yeah, absolutely, you can test them through that when just trying to variations. I think you’ve got to be careful not to be too. Disjointed, so if one ad, if you’ve got an ad and it comes to the homepage and it looks totally different or it comes to the landing page, so you need to make sure that journey is still fluid to a certain extent.

click through rate is a good and a bad indicator. So it’s a good indicator that your ad’s working and they’re coming through to site. however, it might be Facebook are serving up rubbish leads, so they click through and when they’ve come to site they’ve jumped off. Straight away.

So you have to look at your engagement rate and how people are acting on your site. the main thing you can really need to think about is how many people are seeing ads to begin with, how many people are then clicking through. So what’s your click through rates and then what, how many people wants to get to the site?

Are they making a key action, whether that’s, sign up for a newsletter or sign up for more information, how people actually creating that. if you get a hundred thousand people, to your website, but only 10 people do something, you’re not doing very well from that side of things, and you know your budget’s not working very well, or, to use a more realistic example, say you get a thousand people, but you only get one or two, it’s that’s a lot of people that shouldn’t have really been coming to your website in the first place.

Yeah. Yeah, so to get back to the testing side of it, you can definitely use that as a tool but make sure the journey is not too disjointed from it as well, yeah, it does make it a bit tougher when it comes to the kind of more, sweeping changes, but I think with a bit of time and a bit of planning you can get that kind of, three stage process.

you’ve got your advert, landing page, and then whatever’s next you can make, smooth that out. Yeah, and, that way you are still significantly reducing the risk of a company wide rebrand or, investment like that. yeah. but still getting data that’s a bit more accurate than just the click through rate.

I did see there was a whole, controversy not that long ago about, W. H. Smith applying some new logos to their, some of their stores across the UK. I don’t know if you saw any of that, but it looked very much like the NHS branding. and I think they’d only applied it to about five stores at the time, and they were widely panned in the press for doing so.

I did see someone just comment saying, actually, maybe, they are being extraordinarily smart, because they might have run some focus groups where everyone goes, yeah, that looks really trustworthy, because I guess people trust the NHS. Perhaps maybe there’s some associations there. and then the next step is, we’ll test it in a few stores rather than going down the BA route of spending hundreds of millions of pounds rebranding all of your planes or rebranding all of your stores and then realising, oh actually we need to back out of this.

Yeah, definitely. yeah, I think it’s probably a bit of a smart move just to test out in a few places and if it works, slam the brakes on if you need to. Yeah. Cool. look, Steve, thank you so much for that. I’ve really enjoyed that conversation. thank you so much for all the tools and tips and processes that you’ve recommended.

you’ve mentioned a couple of books already. something I am asking. Everyone for is a book you’d recommend every marketer reads. I don’t know if you want to stick with your original choices or if there’s a third option. Oh, do you know what? I’ve got so many. I’ve I’ve got my list on my screen.

So yeah, obviously that is a good one as well. And a lot of what that talks about is no pun here, is Influence by Robert. That’s how I’d pronounce it as well, yeah. Yeah, very tentatively. So that’s one of the original kind of, psychology books out there, but, anything by, I always need to make sure I don’t say the family, family guy.

Sephrogan? Oh yeah. Yeah, so All Marksters are Liars is a good one, for your storytelling side of things. So anything he does tends to be something I really find quite interesting as well. and one that, this is quite an old book as well now actually, but It’s to sell as human and that was a good thing for me as a marketer who came from a designer background, didn’t really think as a salesperson, but you realize that you are a salesperson.

Everyone in the company, in the organization is a salesperson just at different levels of it. So it just helps you focus, on where you are in that chain, Perfect. Thank you. Plenty of options for me to fill up my bookcase behind me. And Steve, before I let you go, you mentioned at the top, project that you’ve been working on tribe.

Do you want to just talk a bit about that? Yeah, so The Tribe, which is TheTribe. com is a bit of a, it’s a good excuse for me to try to expand my, horizons in terms of exploring who I am as a man. As a human, someone who’s 40, 40 plus, a dad, a husband, and really get to know different groups in the area and wider and do, things like, everyone’s doing it now, cold water dipping, kind of meditation, yoga, breathwork side of things.

The kind of, the key crux of that is, society’s in a bit of a crisis at the moment and, everybody, is struggling, and we’re trying to find ways that we can help people connect with facilitators, who can make their life a little bit easier, Being, myself and my kind of partner, we’re both 40 plus men, so we’re concentrating on 40 plus men because that’s our kind of authentic voice.

at some point we’d love to get, kind of women facilitators into there as well, but, we need to Why didn’t our kind of organization so they can speak for that as well? so the idea is really to help facilitators who are struggling to get clients meet the right people and clients Who are struggling to know what they should be doing or they maybe have an inkling They want to get into kind of breathwork, but they don’t know how to we can help those people find each other Brilliant.

Thank you on the breathwork piece. I’ve only had a couple of sessions of somebody leading, a breathwork session that I’ve been involved in. And it was actually enormously beneficial. so it was just this, it was just the sort of kickoff, a bit of an icebreaker for everybody on a remote call.

and not that I went into it with the attitude of this isn’t for me, I’m a red blooded male blah, blah, blah. But it was something I’ve never done before. And it’s definitely not something I would normally choose to be doing to start my day. It only lasted for maybe, even five to ten minutes, but just having that kind of grounding activity where you are really focusing on something that’s, probably, it’s, the way I describe it is it ended up being quite meditative, and then finishing that process with, okay, so now you’re in that state of mind, consciously think about what you would like to achieve for the day.

How do you want to feel throughout the day? What do you want to achieve? What do you want to feel at the end of the day? I ended up having one of the most productive days of my career doing that. it was absolutely transformational. that said, I haven’t actively done it again, but that’s on me because I have experienced the benefits of breathwork and what it can achieve for me.

Yeah, no, that’s really good to hear, to be honest. the whole thing about doing things like this is to take you out of your kind of normal headspace and kind of create space, headspace, because we’re so You know, tunnel vision. Sometimes we can’t see the wider world among us.

it’s you can be too focused on something. You can’t see how to actually fix a problem. But until we get out of that problem, so definitely yes, stick with the breathwork stuff. but Just one thing where your mind you remind me of one of my clients that used to work with a company called, it was an organization called Aleph Trust and they, they are e learning provider that do transpersonal psychology.

So it’s all, it’s understanding we’re part of the bigger picture in the world, it’s not just as we are, nature. and every meeting, we used to always start with a two minute meditation and it was fantastic. It’s, it was just like a really nice way to center.

yourself and really think about, in the same way as you were doing to the breathwork, is what you want to get from the meeting, what you want to get from the day, and how you can best serve yourself and what you’re going to do with the Hall of Trust, which was a nice way to start. Yeah, I bet it is. I bet the meetings were pretty productive after that as well, less confrontation maybe.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it’s a good way to yeah, take the ego out of things and just think about the higher self, the kind of more positive side of things. Cool. look, Steve, thank you so much. I’ve really enjoyed that. At the start of the conversation, I didn’t expect to be talking about Breathwork, but I’m glad we did.

just, so for everyone listening, how can they connect with you after the show? Yeah, it’s stevelinney.com is my website. I’m also on all social channels as stevelinnie. It tends to be me. I’ve managed to lock in everything to all the chagrin of all the other Steve Linneys in the world, which there probably isn’t that many.

but yeah, on anything you can find me as Steve Linney. Perfect. Thank you very much, Steve. Thanks, everyone.