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EPISODE 12 – Ros Conkie

Engineering Success: Structured Marketing Strategies with Ros Conkie

The idea of a target market has been around for donkey’s years. But with increasingly crowded markets, along with better targeting options for your marketing, simply knowing broadly who you’re selling to isn’t enough, particularly if you’re a smaller business with a limited budget. 

In this podcast episode, David is joined by marketing consultant and trainer Ros Conkie to explore strategies for businesses to identify their ideal customers and employ cost-effective marketing tactics to reach them.

In this episode, we discuss:

  • The importance of understanding your ideal customer persona (ICP)
  • What characteristics should form your ICP
  • How to find out what makes your ICP tick
  • How to employ a lean approach to your marketing to continually optimise it
  • The complexities of attribution and a simple way to get a signal from the noise





Ros has created a checklist for creating your Ideal Customer Persona which you can download here: https://rosconkie.com/checklist 



Episode Transcript
Episode transcript

📍 In this episode, I’m joined by marketing consultant and trainer, Ros Conkie, where we discuss how businesses can go about understanding their ideal customers and budget friendly marketing tactics to reach them.

Ros, great to see you again. How are you doing? I’m good. Good. Thanks for welcoming me here. Not at all. look, Ros, for everyone listening in, for a bit of background, can you give a bit of an introduction to who you are, your interesting career that you’ve had and what you help your clients to achieve?

Yeah, thanks. I’ve been working in marketing for nearly 20 years, which sounds like a long time. But I didn’t take a very conventional route into marketing. I did my degree in mechanical engineering and my plan as when I was young was to become an engineer and As a graduate, I started working at an engineering company in a robotic company, actually, and as a design engineer.

And it was a really small company. I was employee number five. And at the time, my boss, who was the managing director, said to me, Do you know, Ros, I think you’d be good in marketing and sales. And I thought, Oh, no, I don’t want to do that. That’s all creative fluff and nonsense. That sounds like a step backwards.

Yeah, I’ve got an engineering degree. I want to design robots. That’s why I’m here. And, and I, so obviously I didn’t say this to my new boss, but, As I started working in, I started getting involved in marketing and sales, and as I, the more I learnt about marketing, the more I realised that, bad marketing is fluff and nonsense, we’ve all seen it, but good marketing is, actually very structured, it’s methodical, it’s carefully planned and designed and project managed, it’s tested and measured and incrementally improved and All of a sudden it starts to sound a lot like engineering and so my career’s kind of come full circle because of the way that I do marketing now is the way that I was taught how to do engineering, start with a really good specification and then brainstorm how you can meet that specification, make sure all of your, all of your ideas are really aligned with that specification and then you start small and prototype, test, measure, tweak, incrementally improve.

And then when it’s working really well, then you scale it up. And that’s how good marketing is. And that’s, so I talk about marketing machine with my clients because it’s something you can visualize, something that’s tangible. Marketing is so often, it seems like this sort of intangible, nebulous, dark art.

whereas I talk about it as okay, let’s design a marketing machine that’s going to churn out long term loyal customers. how is that marketing machine going to work? And, yeah, so that’s the way I work with my clients and how I ended up in marketing and I really, love marketing and I love marketing because the reason I went into engineering was because I wanted to make stuff that people would buy and use, but you can design the best products in the world or services.

And if, but if people don’t get it, there’s just no point to it. So you’ve got to get the marketing, And, the sale so that people understand why this is such a great. product or service. Yeah. Yeah. Totally agree. and your point about building systems and processes, obviously that’s very well aligned to your engineering background, but applying that to marketing is incredibly valuable.

when you’re working with clients, first of all, what sort of organizations do you typically work with? we work with quite a lot of engineering companies, tech, as you’d expect. Yeah. But, we also, work with quite a few. creatives, and it’s funny, our clients seem to fall into two categories, either they are very structured people who want someone who’s going to do marketing in a very structured way, or they’re completely unstructured people who are, very creative types who know that they need some structure in their business and, we’re the ones that can bring that structure to them.

For them, because they are not themselves necessarily particularly structured or they just, they want that structure in their business. So we work with two quite different types of clients, but a lot of engineering tech software, as you’d expect a lot of niche. Businesses. Yeah. and the point you made earlier about, in a product background or an engineering background wanting to create something that people will use and it will improve their lives.

it doesn’t matter if the communication’s not right or the audience isn’t right, or even perhaps in the product development, it wasn’t spec’d out properly. A key part of that is actually understanding who your customer is. I know when we were speaking before we were talking about ideal customer profiles, it’d be good to get your thoughts on actually how as, a small business, you’d go about understanding who your ideal customers should be.

Yeah, exactly. So like I said, you start with the specification and your specification, if you’re creating a marketing machine to churn out long term loyal customers. You’ve really got to know what your raw materials are going into that machine. And that’s your ideal customer persona. So who are your dream customers that you want to attract to your business?

Because particularly in small businesses, especially, very niche businesses where, they can’t just look around at what other people are doing in their marketing and go, Oh yeah, we’ll just copy that. Because their businesses are different and what they’re selling is different and they, you can’t just copy and paste, you can’t just advertise something and people go, Oh, yes, I’ll have a robot or something.

or, huge software system. you’ve got to, you’ve got to be, you’ve got to really, educate people on what, they’re actually buying. And so having an ideal customer persona means that. It’s the difference between a scattergun approach, trying to target everyone, which is, a friend of mine calls it, who’s a marketer, she calls it spray and pray.

And, you’re just putting your name out there everywhere you can and just crossing your fingers and hoping that it’ll work. The problem with that is That might work for a big business that has a massive budget and really does need to get in front of everyone, the types I’m talking about, the sort of the John Lewis, Marks and Spencers, GoCompare, these companies that really, they just want to get in front of everybody because their services are really for everybody.

but for the kind of people that I work with, who are, like I said, often very niche, very specific, they’re looking for specific types of people and it might, they don’t want to get in front of. Millions and millions of people. They just want to get in front of the right people. So to create an ideal customer persona, a lot of people, so the way I was taught how to do this, back in the day, was to, you start with demographics.

how old are they and are they male or female and what do they like to do and where do they live and, are they married and have children, all of this sort of demographic kind of stuff, what books do they read? The problem with that. Now is that, the reason that was useful 20 years ago is because we had so many, we had much fewer choices when it comes to marketing and getting in front of people.

Whereas now we can get in front of people in so many different ways. We can be very specific using data driven marketing to get in front of very specific people using, digital advertising, where you can really be specific about the kind of people you want to get. Get in front of the kind of things that they’re interested in.

So actually I, don’t start with demographic at all. I start with what’s really important to your customers. So really get into the mind of your customer and think about those, imagine one customer that you’ve, maybe you’ve worked with in the past or someone, just someone that the kind of person who, if you met them at a business networking, you just climb over everyone else to speak to them because they’re such a perfect fit for your business, they need what you offer.

They’ve got the budget. They’re going to get so much value from it. Their values are aligned. they’re really, they’re just a great fit for what you do. And when you’ve got that person in your mind, you can really start thinking about, okay, what’s important to them when in the context of my category of, my product or service, the kind of things that I sell.

What’s in, what do they like about? What do they dislike about it? They’ve never worked with me before, so you know, what are they, gonna be concerned about? What are they gonna be, what are they gonna be worrying about when they’re thinking about buying from me? they’ve never bought from, they don’t know if I’m, I could be a complete cowboy for all they know, so what’s the worst case scenario?

If they buy from me and I turn out to be terrible, what’s the implications for them? and what questions do they want to ask? And these sorts of things, once you start to really understand these things about your customer, that’s where your marketing gold is, because that’s the content you can create.

Those are the kinds of things you want to put on your website, that like the questions that people ask, put all of those questions and your answers on your website so that You can overcome those questions before people even pick up the phone to you. And yeah, and it just makes your marketing so much more attractive to the right people, because then when the person, the people who are just like your ideal customer, when they go to your website and they see that you’ve already answered all the questions that were already in their head, plus a few more that actually they hadn’t thought of yet.

And it builds so much trust. It helps, it helps that build that relationship. They see you as an authority of, a trustworthy authority. And it just helps people to buy more easily. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. And Ros, you’ve shared with me a checklist that’s available on your website, so I’ll include a link to that in the show notes.

Yeah, sure. But I think you’re absolutely right to mention it’s not just about how you target the messaging, because we’ve got a wealth of capabilities now, not just with how we can target. our, ads online, but with connected TV, we can even target, different neighbours in the same street will often get different ads on their TV.

Yeah, it’s amazing, isn’t it? And it’s remarkable what can be achieved, yeah. And did you find this with your clients that, you can, depending on what the client wants, but you can get so targeted into exactly the right person. like you say, with different digital platforms, it’s, But you’ve got to know, you’ve got to really understand your customer in order to do it, can’t you?

Yes. You can’t say, you can’t do that, use that kind of data driven marketing effectively if you don’t know that your customers are, what they’re thinking about, what they’re interested in, what they’re concerned about. Yeah, absolutely. And it would be great if you could talk about how an organization, how a business can actually go about understanding who their ideal customers should be.

Yeah, and this is a huge difference between big businesses and small businesses. In the way I was taught how to do marketing, which is pretty much, I think, how big business is. I think I was taught how to do marketing for big businesses. And I don’t know whether you found this when you were trained in marketing.

The structure was start with lots of market research, do loads of market research, so that you really understand your customers. And then, once you’ve done loads of market research, then you will create your strategy and then you roll out your strategy for the next Yeah, at least maybe five years across your team of experts and agencies and, hundreds of people, millions of pounds of budget.

now the clients that I work with, if I were to say to them, okay, let’s spend 5 percent of your marketing budget on, market research, they’d probably say to me, Okay, that’ll give us a few hundred pounds or a thousand, a couple of thousand pounds or something. but realistically there’s nothing, there’s nothing that I can find out for that small amount of money that they don’t already know.

Because the difference in a small business is that Pretty much every business owner that I work with, they know their customers already. They speak to them every day. And this is the huge difference between a big business, because a big business, the marketing department don’t speak to the customers.

They might have a meeting every so often with the sales team and, then the sales team might speak to some of the customers, but the marketing team is just that far removed. From their customers. So they have to do this market research to understand the customers, but the small, in small businesses when particularly, with the exception perhaps of e commerce, there are some small businesses which don’t quite fit this model, but most of the service businesses that I work with, they know their customers because they talk to them every day.

And so actually what we do is we take a lean approach. So this is from my engineering background. I don’t know whether you’ve heard of lean as a process. Lots of engineers are, most engineers are very familiar with it and software development is all developed using a lean process, which, and it basically means you start with a load of assumptions, but you know what your assumptions are.

You’re very clear about your assumptions. Then you create a minimum viable product, or in my case, or in a marketing case strategy, minimum viable strategy based on all of our assumptions. And then we test and measure and we increment, but we incrementally improve rapidly. And, this is how most software is developed nowadays.

And, and the beauty with doing this in a small business, taking this approach with marketing is that you can start with all of your assumptions about your ideal customer, just out of your business owner’s head, because sometimes it takes a bit of coaching to really draw them out, but.

Most of that knowledge and understanding is actually there. really I’m getting that down, but just acknowledging these are all assumptions. We haven’t verified these, but we think that most of this is true. And then based on this, we can make some good guesses as to how we should go forward with our strategy.

But we’ll check and test and measure at every stage. Yeah. Rinse and repeat that. And it’s a virtuous circle at that point. Yeah. And sometimes you get some surprises. Yeah. And it keeps it interesting, doesn’t it? yeah. Absolutely. And that’s where the points of differentiation come from as well, Because if everyone’s looking at very similar data, there’s, across A competitive market, there’s a real risk that everyone’s going to end up sort of identifying the same pain points and the same impacts that they’re going to make. But if you can find these little nuggets that no one else has picked up on yet, that can be the point of differentiation.

I really liked your point that you made around just coming up with some hypotheses first and then testing them as quickly and in a low cost way, testing as many of them as possible and learning in that virtuous circle. Yeah. When we spoke before you gave a great example of one way that businesses can do that is to look at trust pilot reviews, for example, I don’t know whether you’ve got any other ideas on how businesses could try and better understand their ideal customer profile or the audience and the pain that they’re trying to fix.

Yeah, there are some really simple market research techniques that any small business can use. one of our favorites is just simply interviewing customers, particularly if you’re in a, if you’re the kind of business where you don’t have, or you don’t want thousands of customers, but for a lot of service businesses, they might only need, much smaller numbers of good quality customers.

And. picking a few customers who have been a customer for a long time and just interviewing them and asking them questions about. what’s the impact that we have made on your business? And when, before you started working with us, what were your concerns? And, if someone like you was looking for services like ours, what might you want to know?

What would make you, what would worry you? What might, what would help you trust a company like ours? And just asking these sorts of questions. Again, all the questions that were in my checklist, basically, that, that all the listeners can download, it’s just asking them all these questions can really help to verify, yeah, your thoughts and your assumptions and surprising how, few interviews you need to do to start to get to see some real patterns.

sometimes, you can do it in less than 10 interviews. You start to see a real pattern in what people are saying. Yeah, I’ve found that often I’ll pick up on something that somebody just mentions almost as an offhand comment, or maybe it’s something I’ve observed without asking directly.

And then the next five. Sessions where I’m interviewing or even shadowing people if I’m shadowing people really helpful. yeah, it’s almost verifying that hypothesis that you’ve learned from the previous handful of Interviews that you’ve conducted. Yeah, I’m just gonna I’m gonna wax lyrical about something I’ve done recently as well, which was mine A bit of data from one of my clients, CRM systems, and they don’t have an especially complex sales process or especially complex CRM, but they follow the spiced framework for selling.

So it’s situation, pain, impact, critical event and decision and then exporting all of that information into chat GPT and just saying, you summarize. ChatGPT, what all, what the main pains that our customers are experiencing are. And it did the work of probably a marketing exec that would take them a week to do.

And it did it in five minutes and it was absolutely brilliant. Wow. That’s really great idea. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I found it so helpful. I’m sure there’s many other opportunities that people can find to try and use that sort of tool to mine and understand the information that’s available to us now.

Yeah, and actually even, taking, you mentioned Trustpilot reviews. Yeah. taking those as well and, put, seeing what ChatGPT can summarize them as. What are the main pain, bearing, with all of this information, what are the main, points of difference? What are the main benefits that people are getting?

Those sorts of things. Yeah. That’s a great idea, yeah. Cool. glad you like it. Yeah. let’s imagine a scenario, you’ve worked with a client, you’ve helped them define who their ideal customer is, that’s going to influence the messaging and perhaps, the channels that they use to go and track these customers down.

Taking your kind of logical, scientific, process driven approach to marketing. How do you actually help your clients to understand what of the entire morass of options available to them they should actually be choosing? Yeah, the smorgasbord as my clients called it. There’s the smorgasbord of marketing.

And, I have to, that is one of the hardest things about marketing. I think in, now, in 2024, is this just the, vast choices that we have available. And again, this is another reason why having an ideal customer persona. That you really know so well, this is why it’s so useful, because then you can start to, if your ideal customer persona is, I don’t know, James, you can say, oh, okay, where would James, what would James think?

Does James actually, is James on Facebook or LinkedIn or, or Instagram or TikTok? Does James read these papers, article, journals where we’re thinking of advertising? Does James, what does this person Do, where do they go? What might they be looking for? And you can, then you can start to narrow down, to, to some opportunities.

But, yeah, you do end up with a, very, it’s easy to create a very long marketing wishlist. And that’s why it’s so important to have a very logical, method for prioritization, which is again, something that I teach all of my clients is, and again, from, my engineering backgrounds, just.

You can’t, you. If you’re trying to do what I call gut feel decision making, constantly end up changing your mind and changing your strategy. And this is where so many of the clients that I start working with, where they’re at that time is, all of their marketing decisions have just been based on, Oh no, that, that feels like the right, the best thing for us to do right now.

But I don’t know about you, but my gut changes its mind all the time. So it’s definitely not reliable. Yeah. and also sometimes. It’s additive, whatever action or activity you’re undertaking, it’s additive. So if you run an ad in a newspaper, not saying that people necessarily should, but if you run a single ad, it’s unlikely I’d expect to deliver much of a return on investment.

But if you’ve made the commitment and I’ve noticed this in my behavior, I’ll read the Sunday newspapers and I won’t recall seeing a single advert in there, but occasionally there’ll be. An advertiser who, they advertise in the same spot, in somewhere prominent, week in, week out, for three months.

And I do end up noticing them, but if someone had gone, we’ve run one ad, didn’t work for us, let’s move on to the next thing, try that for one or two times, that didn’t work either, and just move on. Actually, nobody ever learns. You must get this too. Oh, yeah, we tried this. We tried Instagram. It didn’t work.

Yeah, we tried this. We didn’t we tried networking. We tried advertising. We tried all this stuff. We didn’t work. It didn’t work. Did you do you get that a lot? Yeah, it’s And it’s exactly what you said, you try these things for a little bit. And but you Yeah, like you say, you shouldn’t expect to see results straight away because it’s, as you say, it’s additive.

Yeah, and then there’s the, flip side of that same conversation of, we’ve got this super successful competitor who’s, and this is how they’ve grown, and that might be the case, but maybe they did that five years ago and that’s now why they’re so big, and simply replicating what they were doing at the time, that probably won’t work for you anymore.

Yeah. Yeah, it does come down to testing an awful lot but testing with a bit of intelligence applied to it as well for small businesses, in fact for any business Obviously, you’ve got to be cognizant of the return on investment of your marketing spend as well at the smaller end as we’ve already discussed.

They don’t have massive budgets. So they’re Channels are their approaches that aren’t going to break the bank that they can test and try out relatively easily I wish there was a simple answer to that question yes, there are, but again, it depends on what you’re selling and who you’re selling it to.

and one of the things, it depends on, so We’re very careful to look at how much you want to spend per customer. question people often ask is about budget and how much should I budget? how much should I spend on my marketing? and this is it’s a really important question because you’ve got to get return on investment from your marketing.

It’s otherwise just, there’s no point to it. And so you have to work out how much you can afford to spend, or how much you can, yeah, how much money will, spending, how much spend on your marketing will give you that return on investment that you need. But that’s going to be different for every business because, I’ve got, a client who, yeah, they sell really complicated robotic systems where one, one project might be upwards of 100, 000.

If you, if we look at how much can we spend per customer acquiring that customer. We can spend a lot more per customer for him than for somebody who might sell, 50 a time of products. And so I, always start with, the question of, if you have a, your, if your accounts are in a good shape then you can go into your accounts and find out what your profit margins are and so on.

You can get a much better idea of what your marketing budget should be if you have a good accountant. But the way I often start with a lot of small businesses who don’t, haven’t really thought about this question for is, I start with my customer shop. So imagine I’m in a customer shop. I own a customer shop and you can just walk in and buy a customer from me.

And it’ll be an average customer. You don’t know what kind of customer you’re going to get. It’ll be, but on, if you buy enough customers from me, they will average out to be whatever average you get. So if your average customer buys. or your average customer spend is say a thousand pounds over a few years then you can guess that you know per customer that you buy from me that’ll be how much it’ll be worth.

So how much would you be prepared to spend buying a new customer? and it’ll be different for every business because it’ll depend on your costs and your profit margins and so on. But It’s often quite a good place to start because a lot of the business owners that I work with, like I said, they’re very close to their business.

They’re very in touch with the, how their business runs. So often they can sit with that kind of thought experiment and go, okay, I can probably. I can spend, a hundred pounds per customer or I can spend, yeah, I can afford maybe 75 pounds per customer or whatever. But, and then we can start looking at our conversion rates across the, your marketing and sales process.

Or some people call it the pipeline. I like to call it a buyer journey. So how do people go from never having heard of you before to being a long term customer? And when you look at your conversion rates across your, buyer journey. you can start to think about, how much, so if I can spend, say I can spend 100 per customer.

If, maybe the step before getting a customer might be, sending a proposal. So let’s say, let’s just keep things simple. So say 50 percent of my proposals get accepted as customers. So that means that I can, so if I can spend 100 per customer, then I can spend 50, half of that. Getting someone to a proposal and then, I can go back again and say, so before getting a proposal, people might, let’s say have a first meeting and let’s, again, let’s keep things really simple.

So let’s say we’ve got a 50 percent conversion rate between getting a proposal or having a first meeting and getting a proposal. So then if I can spend 50 getting a proposal. something to a proposal, I can spend 25 getting someone to a first meeting. And you can, if you measure your conversion rates like this all the way through your whole buyer journey, then you can, and you know how much you can spend per customer, you can then work out how much you can you know you can track it all the way back to how much do i want to spend per click and then it gets really exciting because if you’re doing if you’re doing like some digital advertising for example which is really great really easy to measure you can start going okay i can spend If I’m spending less than 5 per click, I’m making money.

I’m spending less As long as I’m spending less than 5 per click, then I’m going to be spending less than 100 per customer. So that’s great. So then, if we start doing some Google Ads or some sort of, digital advertising, and it starts, you start getting some numbers in, you start getting some data in, and within a month or so, you can start seeing what those what that cost per click is going to be.

So if you if right from the outset, it’s okay, it’s 10 per click, and Can we, improve our conversion rates at all? There might be some things that we can do to improve our conversion rates, but actually we’re never going to make that profitable. So you can quite quickly discount a marketing activity if you’re measuring it right.

Equally, you might say, okay, actually from the outset it’s four pounds per click. Brilliant. I’m making money. Let’s, scale it up. Let’s, invest in this because I’m, that means I’m definitely spending less than a hundred pounds per customer, which was my budget. We’re good. yeah, and I think that’s maybe another advantage that smaller businesses have over enterprise size organizations because you’re absolutely right to mention that you can measure digital advertising and its performance, etc But it’s I think it’s rarely as clear cut in terms of attribution for what’s actually generating someone’s demand.

And if you’re a massive organization, then you just, you have no option or the C suite have no option but to rely on the data that’s being fed to them. But I think in many situations, everyone’s providing data that means they’re doing a brilliant job and yet their revenue will be flat or declining. whereas if you’re in a small business, you’re, the leadership’s going to be close enough to the front line.

they’ll know that relationship started off because they met them at a conference or they happen to work with them previously, whatever it is. Now, they can apply some intelligence to the data that they’re getting from their digital marketing or other, channels as well, but they’ve got a much clearer idea as to what is working and what isn’t.

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. The harder, it’s complicated by, a long, what I call a longer buyer journey. So for a lot of the clients that I work with, they’re, people don’t buy what they sell on a whim. So people don’t buy a, 200, 000 robotic system just on a whim because they see an advert, they, it’s got to fit into their production line and it’s got, there are lots of people involved in the decision making process and there’s, it takes, it can take, oh, more than a year to, for that person from when they first hear about this particular product or company to actually you know, just getting started, it can take a few years for some of my customers and that makes measuring your marketing really complicated because, that person, okay, they’re a customer now, we met them, we’ve met them at two exhibitions and then we also had a meeting with them and then we bumped into them at another exhibition and then we, so, which, and they probably have seen some adverts that we’ve been running as well, which of these things?

Have contributed and the, answer unfortunately is, all of them because all of them have contributed to building up trust gradually over time and getting that customer to a point where they trust you enough to say yes to that big project. Yeah, the white paper they downloaded three years ago isn’t the only reason they’ve become a customer of yours, but without that, they might not have become a customer.

Exactly. And, but it’s impossible. This is why cutting your marketing, when people want to try and reduce their marketing budget, which, at the moment is on a lot of people’s minds. It’s very difficult because, like you say, you could go, Oh, we haven’t had anything from, our social media activity.

And. you might not have had any direct, you might not have had any people clicking on that and then immediately buying, but without that regular stream of content going out and, regular information and just, touch those touch points over a period of years, these customers might, will probably not have become customers.

And it’s, yeah, it’s a really tricky one. This one measurement is so important. Yeah, there’s a podcaster, he’s not a podcaster, he runs his own consultancy but he does have a very successful podcast guy called Chris Walker and something he’s been evangelising is just trying to measure what is causing demand generation in quite a simple way of all you do is just ask the question at the point of question.

Yeah. Conversion. How did you hear about us? And instead of having a drop down menu where everyone just randomly clicks whatever option they first click on without giving it too much thought, it’s a required field and it’s free text. And you’re going to get a ton of junk in there. And you’re going to get, I don’t know, none, don’t know all the time.

But after a few inquiries, you’re starting to get a bit of a signal out of the noise. And I’ve seen it myself with some other clients where they’re attributing absolutely everything to, Oh brilliant, the website is contributing 100 percent of our inquiries. But in that same train of thought. Before the internet and business was done over the phone, the telephone wasn’t generating inquiries, it was just the way of communicating.

And when you actually look through the data, it’s, oh, I found about, you found out about you on LinkedIn, or I’ve been following your founder after they gave a talk at a particular conference, or whatever it is. But it enables you then to make intelligent investments in the right stuff. Yeah. And the website example is a really great one because.

Actually, no one finds a company from the website, they find the company either from a Google search or from a link somewhere that sent you to the website or no one, unless you’re, hotels. com or you’re, no one just types in a website thinking, Oh, I wonder if this is a website, you, start with a Google search and so it’s SEO.

Which is some, how people found out about you or it’s AdWords, if you were doing AdWords or if it’s an advert. And so yeah, a web, when people say, oh, we got all of, or most of our business comes from our website, so we don’t need to do all of this other stuff. If, but how? How do people find the website?

that’s never the first point of, yeah, never the first time. Never the awareness driving po activity. Yeah. Brilliant. Ros, thank you so much for all of that. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed our call. it’s great to talk to you. Yeah, likewise. Before I let you go, first of all, I love the idea of a customer shop and if you can actually create a customer shop, that will be brilliant.

I think I would be very successful if I could just create a customer shop. At the moment, I’m just doing marketing machines, but, yeah, a customer shop would be awesome. But, something, I am asking everyone, for is a book recommendation and I’ve been very envious of the collection you’ve got in the shelf next to you, but, which book would you like to recommend to all marketers?

Yeah, a book which I recommend a lot now is called The Jelly Effect by Andy Bownes. it’s all about communication and how we can speak to our customers in a way that, resonates and that, so that, like I said before, so that they really get what you’re talking about, so that they hear what you’re saying and they’re like, Oh, I get it.

Yes, that’s what I need. I really, I want to hear more about it. And, it’s a really good book, The Jelly Effect. I would check that out. It’s pretty, rare that someone makes a recommendation that I’ve not got somewhere in the house tucked away on a bookshelf behind me or downstairs.

So I would check that one out and add it to the list. Thank you. and afterwards, how can people get in touch with you, Ros? Yeah, I’m on LinkedIn. Happy, love to connect with, people, anyone who’s fancied chat about marketing. my website’s roskonki. com. the checklist that I mentioned, my customer persona checklist is rosconkie.com/checklist and I’ve got other resources on my website as well, which people can download and use. Perfect. Yeah, get in touch. I’ll make sure to link to all of those in the show notes. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks everyone. Thanks.