Turning Words Into Powerful Tools

 Every brand uses words in some shape or form to communicate with their audience, but most are so bland and full of corporate jargon that hardly anyone takes notice. Which is why I’m so pleased to be joined by brand message and voice specialist Olly Davy to explore how you can transform words into powerful tools that tap into the deepest motivations of your customers.

Olly, welcome to the podcast. Great to see you again. Thank you, David. Glad to be here. Olly, it’d be really helpful if you could start off with an intro to who you are, what you do and how you’ve ended up working as a freelancer. Yes. How have I ended up as a brand message and voice specialist? it’s been a decade long journey to get me to the point where I am today.

So I have under my belt. and I have evolved from being a freelance copywriter, a pen for hire, doing any and every sort of copywriting you can imagine, from, websites and press ads and scripts, you name it into specializing in this niche of, message and voice. I work with all sorts of clients, from household names like Adidas and BrewDog, PWC, to massive companies that you’re less likely to have heard of Olam.

and then many companies who are not household names of various sizes from well funded startups, through to much larger organizations. and my specialism now is all about that creative and strategic part. Of copywriting, getting under the skin of the organization, what it does, why it does what it does, how it helps its customers.

understanding the customer’s deeper motivations and creating, uncovering those insights and creating a framework that will help the organization communicate effectively anywhere and everywhere, whether that’s the, phone conversation that the founder’s having a pitch meeting, emails, obviously websites, that’s a big part of the, Of what I work on.

but the idea is that you do that, hard work, that intense work, and then you’re empowered and better able to communicate across the board. So that’s the shift I’ve gone on from. Give me a brief and I’ll create some nice words for you to actually I’m upstream and I’m helping you shape the brief and looking more deeply at what you actually need and what your customers need.

So we can create a more robust and effective messaging framework. To ultimately help you stand out in a, in the market. Yeah. And it’s interesting your point about, empowering everyone in the organization to have that consistent voice throughout. And I want to come back to that, in a bit from our conversation we had a few weeks ago, you were talking about one of the kind of prerequisites, of investing in your brand voice is actually you need to have a strategy in place.

You need a strategy in place for your brand first. what is it that enables you to do? Yes, it’s a good question. So brand strategy, it’s very helpful when people do have it because my work complements the brand strategy, but my work can also operate in place of a brand strategy when you don’t have it, if you’re an earlier stage company.

Because effectively my service is strategic. This is about thinking deeply about your brand, what you’re trying to do, your customers and what they need. So the voice, the story and the voice is developed strategically. When a brand does have a strategy that goes into the mix in the research phase. So i’ll be looking at the kind of things they’ve developed around, the customer personas and the purpose and the mission and Where they want to speak to their customers customers, how and why they want to do that.

and either the process that I embark on with the organization validates and builds on the work they’ve already done, or it might cause changes to it and actually be an opportunity to reevaluate. And you mentioned the process that you go on. It’d be great to understand, because I think sometimes people can approach this sort of project as a little bit, it’s ethereal, it’s a little bit creative and all, it has the potential to be all over the place.

But it’s interesting that you mentioned the process that you go through. It’d be great to hear a bit more about that. Yes, so crucial to me the process. So I am a creative person. I am a writer. I’m a poet and a storyteller and I’m, I love the flights of fancy and the late night fireside chats and I could spin you a great yarn and share a verse or two with you and you should come to my gigs.

But when it comes to, business outcomes, there’s risk involved, there’s money on the line, there’s sales to be made, there’s stakeholders, there’s reputations, et cetera, et cetera. So for me, the process about is about de risking something that is inherently messy and creative. what is a brand voice, you know this idea of go away and work your magic You know the worst case scenario for a designer or a copywriter the kind of brief that we’ve all had at some point in our careers Just make it shine make it sparkle because people don’t really understand what you’re doing and my process is about bringing rigor so that it de risks it for me and it de risks it for the client i’m allow space for mess and tangents, but there are always milestones, both in the workshops I run and over the course of an entire project.

So that even if a client comes to me with a terrible brief, by the end of the initial stages, the brief is tight and, maybe it’s changed, but we both know what we want to achieve. So the process is about de risking and ensuring effective outcomes. Does the process change depending on the, client and the brief, or do you follow a sort of set criteria or set a set of stages that you move through with each client?

It does change. So the methods that I use during the workshop phase, I adapt to the project and the needs of the client. but they’re typically in similar areas. So particularly, brand story. brand purpose, and brand voice. Those are the methodologies I use are usually in those areas, but whether a company needs all of those or one of those, that varies.

And so I will adapt accordingly. Does one need to come before the other? Absolutely. Yes. It’s a really good point. And something that I encounter a lot that brand voice is, there’s an established market for it. Although most companies don’t have a defined one, there is an established and growing market for brand voice.

And it’s a very useful marketing tool, across sectors, particularly I think in B2B where there’s less differentiation and there’s a tendency to slip back into sort of bland writing. but the, People approached me for brand voice and it soon becomes apparent as we chat, that actually the, if the voice is the, how you’re going to say it.

What you’re going to say is not clear. What you’re going to say is not clear. It’s not defined, the story that it doesn’t have strong foundations necessarily. And, so we require an additional bit of work and that is both very rewarding and also challenging. If you are asking a client to deepen and expand the brief and you’re saying actually.

We’re not yet in a position. I don’t think we’re yet in a position to start uncovering your voice because I’m not clear yet what your message is. I don’t think you’re clear yet what your strongest messages and, you, have to have a good relationship and an element of trust in order to be able to.

take it there. But yeah, definitely the message in the story needs to be clear and then you can uncover the voice. And your point about, I’m not sure, in a hypothetical example, I’m not sure for the client that they’re actually clear on what it is that they’re trying to say. You also mentioned about your process trying to de risk that for the business.

Is there a way that you can test what message you should actually be saying as the customer? That’s a very good question. And, in terms of, how effective a different messages, this is something I would like to bring more into my process, I would say, making the outcomes more tangible.

it’s not, it’s hard to measure. Things like brand voice, brand message. when you think about, we all know that brands are powerful. if people made sales based on information alone, then brands wouldn’t be needed. but things like brand loyalty, brand value, brand awareness, building your tribe, you can measure your sales.

You can measure your web traffic. You can measure your email open rates. But how do you measure the strength of your brand? And the return on investment from a brand voice project? That’s, harder. On a website, A, B testing. I definitely advocate for that. If you’ve got to the point where you’re actually applying the brand message and the brand voice to something like a website, let’s test different.

headlines and value propositions on your homepage and see what works, but in, in the earlier stages, before you get to the customer facing assets, if you like, then the testing is really, you’re not so much testing as. basing your insights on thorough research. So the more access I have to, different, echelons of the company, access to the customers, more information and access I have than the more sort of robust the insights will be.

And in that sense, they are. It’s an interesting point, isn’t it? Because I think a lot of people, a lot of businesses might start this process and it just gets, segmented off to that’s the marketing department and the marketing department only. Yes. But your point about just having as much input from different sources, even outside of the organization as well, I think that’s really crucial.

Absolutely. And, Often not possible for whatever reason, the idea of just I’ll quickly get this bit of copywriting done, and, I’ve, I’m fortunate now with the experience I have that I am, if, I’m not a good fit with the client, if they don’t recognize the value or they don’t need that in depth, thorough process, then we, we won’t, work together necessarily.

Cause the access is crucial and the time that you put in at the beginning, I’ve working with a new client at the moment who, they make furniture and so I was in their workshop and, that was a joy for me because lots of my clients are office based. And I enjoy meeting them in person regardless, but a workshop where they’re making tangible things, you can see the wood, you can see the machinery, you can see the team working.

the, value of that for me in terms of understanding the personality of the company is massive. And so that’s sometimes possible when requested and feasible geographically, logistically, access to customers is also really valuable. And. At a minimum, you can do that through testimonials. So what have customers said about you?

Reviews, they’re revealing, they, people talk about things that the company don’t necessarily prioritize as their strengths or are not aware of as their strengths. And customers will give you those insights. The best case scenario is getting to interview customers. and for me personally, in my experience, that happens rarely.

and it’s, often a time thing. It’s also a confidentiality. there’s various reasons, but, yes, the thoroughness. It’s very valuable when possible. Do you think, when you end up creating, a brand voice for an organization, should it mirror the sorts of language and the tone that the customers would use, or should it, does it not necessarily have to be a brand?

going down that route, perhaps it can be differentiated slightly. Yeah, absolutely. I don’t think, so there’s, for me, the two strands are, so the, story and the message is very much about empathizing with the customer’s needs and the problems they face. and the success they want to realize and the failure they want to avoid.

All of those elements of a narrative framework. That is the message part. That’s a, deep process of shifting your thinking from we do this, we do that multi award winning, blah, blah, blah, to actually thinking about the customer as the star of the story. And although that’s very simple, it’s quite profound shift that many companies never make.

And you, we’re all on websites all the time and you only have to look at any number of about us pages to see that in 1989 we, and you’ve just lost me already. It’s irrelevant. It’s boring. I don’t care. And so the message part is about shifting the focus to the customer and that’s deeply empathetic.

And it’s about them feeling heard and understood, and you’re recognizing the journey they’re on. And then your voice. is authentic to you as a business and a brand. And it will naturally resonate with some of your customers. it will resonate with the customers who you want because it’s, authentic to you, but I don’t think it needs to be a good voice is not contrived in that way.

It, the message is outside in what do our customers need and want? The voice is very much uncovered from the nuts and bolts and the personality of the company itself. You mentioned, in an earlier segment, talking about particularly valuable in B2B organisations, because it would appear that B2B, would have a natural default to, adding jargon and, bland, inoffensive language into all of their, copy and how they communicate.

Yes. is, that, do you think, maybe a symptom of how those businesses are organised, as in they’re trying to sell to so many different potential customers within, even if there’s, I’m not communicating this very well, apologies, but even quite a simple B2B purchase probably involves two or three decision makers, or at least people who can influence that decision, so it’s, you’re trying to end up appealing to everybody and offend nobody.

Yes, exactly. The word soup, the death knell of any marketing effort, trying to appeal to everyone. And it’s very interesting. I’m fascinated by it because, as a writer, I’m communi I like to think about copy as a conversation, even though it’s the person who’s reading it is not reciprocating in the true sense of the conversation.

I want them to feel like they’re there. They are seen and heard. The most powerful word in advertising is you, right? And you look at many corporate websites and you have to, you could go through pages before the reader is even acknowledged as a, as existing. And you think, okay, why is that? And is there value in doing it differently?

And absolutely there is. And most of the time it’s just because it’s how it’s always been done. And there’s a fear of appearing. There’s a fear that I’m using voice. means being a sort of chatty informal brand and that’s not suitable for our Sector, we’re very serious, we’re financial services.

We’re a law firm We want to be we charge big bucks and we want to be taken seriously but actually you there’s a the two it’s not only the two extremes of soulless writing and super zany characterful writing, there’s a place in the middle where you’re acknowledging the reader and the customer, and you’re also bringing in whatever elements of your personality, there are to create a distinctive position because the last thing you want is to blend in with everyone else, the other 50 law firms, the other 500 financial services firms, I play a game with, clients during workshops where I get about us copy de branded.

take the names out of like maybe 10 companies, including the client, and I show it to them on slides. And often they don’t recognize their own. And often there’s just tropes and traits and similarities between because people, it’s the herd mentality. so you can, I think, recognize the reader, and the audience.

have a clear idea of who you’re talking to even in a scenario where there are multiple decision makers because there are You know that there are key motivators and needs and problems so you can still have that personal relationship and You have to make more effort. It’s harder than, the broadcast approach, but it’s definitely worthwhile.

It’s more effective. And particularly in this day and age, it is possible to target a good chunk of your communication at a person level, rather than always having it be consumed by absolutely anybody and everybody who might just happen to chance upon it. yes, absolutely. And this idea that, a website is a broadcast medium or, I think we realize when we’re writing an email that one individual is going to read it.

But even then, if it’s a group email, Dear All, this kind of thing, where it’s hold on a second, no, They’re not all, they’re not all gathered around one screen together, reading it as a group, they’re reading it individually and, in above the line advertising, they recognize this when it’s done well, a billboard, which is seen by huge numbers of people all at once, all around it, but it’s talking directly to me.

It’s talking directly to you. They recognize the value of that. And, absolutely with segmentation and the tools we have, digital tools, you can increasingly target your, messaging. And I think it’s to be outspoken. I think it’s like inexcusable not to make the effort these days with your website.

And. Sometimes a website is just a vanity project. I had a client the other day who was quite honest about the fact that they just want a better website that their competitor and we’re not actually working together. If it didn’t feel like a good fit for me, because I was like, if you’re not prepared to do the work and actually go a bit deeper into it, then I, this is perhaps I’m not the right, guy for you, but, that’s not often the case that people are that explicit about the fact that they, that’s the outcome they desire.

And if you, if it’s about, generating business, generating sales, moving people from inquiry to moving people from browsing to inquiry, then you need to take the next step because hopefully we’ll come on to this idea of nerd smithing, but information is not enough to move people along that pipeline.

Yeah, people make their decisions on emotion. They justify it, backwards looking, justified by going, applying some logic and going, Oh yes, this is definitely the right reason, decision for this and this reason, but actually they’re buying it because it felt right in their heart. Yes, exactly.

And, I’m very much about the, acknowledging the Emotion within the context and emotion again in b2b, scary. Is he, what is he going to cry on us here? What’s happening? And, the idea that emotion, we are emotional beings. We are emotional beings and emotions are. powerful drivers, they guide us towards what we need and want and keep us away from danger.

They are, they’re signposts. And in the B2B world, there has been a sort of, we’ve stepped away this idea that we cold, rational beings only making decisions based on speed and price. And, and factors like that, but as you’ve described, those things are usually what rationalizes the decision when you take it to your line manager or your higher up to get sign off.

So I’ve done the research and this is the best solution at the best price, but what made you get a proposal or a quote from that company in the first place? There will be something that occurred in their marketing, on their website, or during your conversation with the representative that spoke to you, and you might not be aware of it.

but it is, it’s definitely occurred somewhere along the line. And so that’s, my job to help people make their communications more effective by actually bringing in, the, persuasive elements of, emotion. I think as well, it’s possible for data and logic to end up being manipulated to prove any decision anyway.

So I’ve, years ago I was in a meeting. It was about environmental friendliness and decision making processes and depending on what you’re depending on ultimately what the decision maker wanted to do, you could prove that going with glass bottles was much more environmentally friendly than going with plastic bottles because glass is recyclable, et cetera, et cetera.

But if you had decided in your heart of hearts, actually, we’re going to go with the plastic, option, then you can totally justify that by going, yeah, but it’s, thinner, it’s lightweight, it uses less, you can pack more into the same space, therefore it’s, it’s generating less CO2 in transport and, there’s no right decision based on logic alone, it ended up being just what the person really wanted to do, and then they’d figure out, they’d fudge the logic afterwards.

Yes. Yes. that’s a good example. Yeah. I want to go back to how you embed the voice throughout the organization. It’s something that you mentioned at the start of this. It feels like that’s going to be crucial, but it’s potentially enormously challenging because the number of touch points that anybody might have in an organization, it expands exponentially the larger the organization becomes.

Yes, absolutely. Integration, very important. Integration, implementation, and just like the thoroughness at the beginning with the research and access to different departments and access to customers, The implementation that is the value cut the long term value comes from doing that well, and it is challenging and yes, there’s budget implications, how many training sessions do you want me to run with how many departments?

How big are these groups? How large is this set of tone of voice guidelines going to be? How many examples am I going to write? How many marketing channels is it going to cover? I think the most thorough set of, mark, brand voice guidelines I’ve ever written had covered 10 marketing channels and was 50 or 60 pages long.

So that’s just brand voice. And many people will widen their eyes at that because often the logo positioning advice is 50 percent pages long. And the tone of voice is the paragraph. We are enthusiastic and believe in teamwork or whatever it might be. And it’s an afterthought because everyone can write so it’s undervalued and that’s a challenge in this industry 20 grand on the website get the boss to write the copy, that’s common.

It’s a common, it’s a common thing but the potential for implementation the way I approach that is I can do it for you. I can run the training sessions with your marketing team, with your human resources team, with your sales team, any team it’s relevant for, bring the finance director because they might be way out of their comfort zone, but actually they have, I was in a workshop recently with a client and the finance director was there and we were writing haikus And he was way out of his comfort zone But it was so valuable because his experience and insight into that aspect of how the company worked brought a whole different dimension It was made the whole thing more worthwhile I can run all of these sessions for you depending on the time and the budget But what I can also do is give you the tools to implement it more effectively yourself Cause the longevity of the project and the value of the project is ultimately dependent on how well empowered you feel to take it forward.

So that’s things like having tone of voice ambassadors in each department, setting up, regular check ins, monthly check ins, what’s working, what’s not working. creating that sense of it being a shared endeavor. You have a cloud based version of the guidelines people can upload changes. They can make tweaks The worst case scenario is a one off project and the guidelines gather dust And a new starter joins it’s read these and they have a quick leaf through and then they crack on and they do it In their own way so it has to be a living, breathing thing, and it’s more than a marketing thing.

It’s about it, I am, I say I’m an idealist, but I, it is about what mission are you on, and if your mission is to serve your customers well, which, I think most companies would. I, hope that’s a big part of their mission. Then understanding what your message is and what your voice is, enables you to do that and, creates that sort of unity and sense of being on a, shared mission.

yeah, there’s huge. There’s huge value in that. There’s huge value in that. there’s a risk, particularly with, just the growing, the fast growing adoption of AI. you mentioned that copywriting, and language is already undervalued, but now that everyone’s got access to ChatGPT for free, if they want to, actually just churning out content that sounds good.

Like every everything else, it’s probably easier than ever to fall into that trap. How do you see AI affecting brand voice and actually are there uses for it to make it actually make it better, make it more embedded in an organization? Yes, I love it. I love AI. I’m embracing it. I, so on a personal level, does it scare me, apocalyptic scenarios, the, chewing up and digesting the entirety of human culture?

Yes. It’s terrifying, but as a professional, as a craftsman, as a writer, as a storyteller, I embrace it. I’m leaning into it. And I think on one level, that’s existential to avoid obsolescence. I want to be at the top of the pack. this, mine is, it’s a premium service for, organizations that really care about their message and their voice.

I’m not fighting in the, Commodity content space and for people who are chat GPT is a scythe that is just slicing through and it’s tiers exist now in the same way that translation services, that Google translate, Totally destabilized the trans world of translation. So you have the tiers where it’s completely done by machine and it’s cheap and fast, and the quality is, variable, to say the least.

Then you have the middle tier where the machine output is overseen by human, and the end quality depends on. the sort of rigor of the person overseeing it. and then you have the top tier, which is the most creative and strategic tier. And that’s, where I operate. And I, so I use AI within my process.

I find the, main function for me of AI is productivity. And, on the one hand, I find that to be. rather a sad thing because the, more faster constantly is exhausting for everyone and it’s, what’s got us in a bind. If you think about the global problems that we face more faster, doesn’t really feel like the answer to me.

you’ve got to play the game. So at the moment I use it as part of my process. I’ll give you an example. Okay. I’m about to go and run a workshop with a client and I want to test out a new exercise, a new process. And, I want to have an understand of how it might go. And so what I would do is I’ll create a prompt, using the framework of that exercise.

Let’s say the five wise exercise. I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, but that’s about deepening into the purpose of a company. And, you, I will get chat GPT to run a hypothetical discussion based on that, process and go into the workshop, better informed about the potential outcomes at each stage.

So I essentially get to experiment within a sandbox and prepare myself for different scenarios. And as a facilitator, whose job is to ask the right questions, then get out the way, I, it’s empowering for me. it’s empowering for that correctly, sorry to interrupt, if I understood that correctly then, so you’ll, create a scenario, you’ll add a scenario to AI, let’s say chat GPT, and then you, ask the AI to come up with a whole host of different reasons, the whys for that particular scenario.

Okay. Yes. To preempt actually how the workshop might run and different directions it might take. Exactly. That’s such a great example. It’s extraordinary. So it’s a bit like a crystal ball. So, you start with a statement about the purpose of the company. and I was, the workshop I did yesterday, it’s that there’s a sustainability focus within this company.

And, so you start with a statement about the company and then you say, why is that? So it’s a bit like being an annoying child. I have my young children. Why is that? Why daddy? Why daddy? That’s exactly the point because you are forced to keep so you do that in person And that’s where you get the real answers, but to have done it beforehand almost instantaneously means that I am in a better position to run that, exercise effectively.

So very useful for me, very useful for me. The other aspect on that. So my business will evolve, I think to start offering elements of AI, to two clients. I, I’m not a AI focused business, but I recognize that in my regular usage of it, I’m more familiar that with it than many people. And so there’s value there.

And you talked about implementation. This is a key area where I think, I can add value for my clients. If you can’t afford for me to run all these clinics and write hundreds of web pages, or, you don’t want me to, then using the, in depth insights that we have uncovered through my process, I can help you create the prompts and the templates that will enable you to create exceptional insights.

Web pages, emails, what have you, because the raw material that we’ve got through the process is outstanding. it’s, not off the cuff, spur of the moment. It’s like deeply relevant to your audience and your business. So that’s something I’m developing. I, do these things internally myself and actually starting to offer those as part of my service is definitely a direction I’m moving in.

That’s such a great use of it. Thank you. I really like that. I want to finish up, on the term nerdsmithing. You’ve mentioned it earlier on. I think it’s such a lovely word. Nerdsmithing, yes. So yeah, as you said, I should trademark this before someone else does. So nerdsmithing is born out of the idea that we live in a world full of amazing, smart, People who run amazing companies do wonderful things.

There’s no shortage of technical know how and brain power. And there’s a whole range, obviously from, I worked with a company last year who are a data engineering company, and they are quite literally scientists researching, publishing papers. You talk about cutting edge. That word is bandied about as much as innovative is they are genuinely pushing the field forward.

And bringing their research into the world of, business to help give, companies, a competitive advantage. The challenge is. That scientists are not necessarily great storytellers. There are exceptions, but when you’re solving hard problems, engineering type problems, people don’t always see the value in storytelling or marketing.

It’s fluff. I’m over here cracking this code, solving this problem, making life easier for my clients, making the world a better place. You just go and do the website and don’t bother me about it. And actually the challenge there is that if you want to, word of mouth is one way to grow a business, but if you want to build a brand, if you want to create a tribe, then marketing is an essential tool and to create effective marketing, you need to be able to tell stories and you need to turn the data and the knowledge.

Into empathy turn evidence into empathy turn engineers into marketeers And that’s where I came up with this idea of nerdsmithing Because first of all, it’s no longer I think derogatory really nerds have inherited the earth So I think i’m safe there some years ago. Perhaps nerd was considered a bit meaner now I think people are proud to be nerds.

so the idea is, you’re a nerd You’ve got so much knowledge, but you don’t yet have the story that’s going to help your idea You know, go viral and create an effective website and effective business. So work with me and I can help you achieve that. That’s, Nerdsmithing. Brilliant.

Love it. Thank you. Oli, before I let you go, I’m asking everybody for a book recommendation. that they hope everyone in marketing gets around to reading at some point. What’s yours? Yes, so I’ve got three because I’ve got a whole shelf over here and it’s tricky to decide. I love reading of all kinds. Be curious is my number one thing for any aspiring writer.

so going across the spectrum, this one is very specific to, to, copywriting. This is persuasive copywriting by Andy Maslin, who’s a legend of the game, using psychology to influence, engage and sell. And it’s very much about the emotional aspect of copywriting and how that is what really underpins our purchasing decisions.

So it’s really a really great manual full of tips and techniques based on his long experience in the industry. Really great book, thumbed. My next recommendation is Predatory Thinking. By Dave Trott. Dave Trott. Yes. Also, Legend of the Game. Fantastic book. Not specifically about copywriting, although obviously he is from, advertising industry.

but the way it’s written, the anecdotes, punchy anecdotes, I love stories and it’s so beautifully communicated and, just very concise and punchy and you can pick it up and read one. sometimes. Business books are intimidating. They sit on your shelf and you don’t read them, but you could read one in just a couple of minutes Yeah, I feel like you’ve taken something away.

They’re brilliant There’s a hundred little stories in there that you just pick up put down and it just changes the way you’re thinking Exactly. It’s really great and then my final recommendation is, slightly more niche. the heart aroused by David White. David White is a poet and also, I don’t know how he would label himself.

I’m bound to say it wrong, but he, also works in with large organizations in the corporate space. He’s not, I wouldn’t say he’s a corporate poet, but he takes the rigor and the methodologies of poetry into the corporate space to create the art. Culture and leadership change. He works some kind of magic and he’s created an extraordinary niche for himself.

And this book, the heart aroused is about poetry and the preservation of the soul at work. So the idea is that you have the needs of the company and you have the needs of the individual. And where do those two meet? Because we are not machines. And I am very interested in that, that you can work in a large organization and still feel nurtured and, that your soul is, being fed.

So that’s a whole other sort of tangent and area of, my enjoyment of my work, but very inspiring when you discover something that, Oh, I’m not alone in thinking that perhaps this is possible. And it’s different to a normal, I say normal to most other business books. And I think that’s important to broaden your horizons to get all those different touch points and different sources of inspiration because that yes, that ends up you can’t help but be more creative because of it.

Exactly. And it’s I think it’s really important to acknowledge our humanity. we’re under tremendous pressure to achieve our deadlines and our objectives. But if you are, what’s the way I think we’re increasingly demanding of our employers. that a job if you’re lucky enough to have one is often not enough anymore, you know turning up and 30 years service and get your carriage clock.

No, I want to be I want to feel like I am being not just financially Recompensed for my work and so that I think is really interesting and it is more niche but very useful and mind expanding because he’s a Not only a wonderful poet, but he really understands the challenges of working within a large organization.

yeah, look, Olly, thank you so much. You’ve been a wonderful guest to have on and I could talk about this for hours and hours, but I have to bring it to a close before I do. How can people connect with you after the show? Yes. So you can find me on LinkedIn, Olly Davy. that’s a good way to connect with me and via my website.

Which is Ollydavy.com and that’s o double l y d a v y dot com brilliant I’ll include links in the show notes Olly. Thank you so much. Thanks everyone. Fantastic. Thanks david