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EPISODE 3 – Lenka Koppova

Nurturing Connections With Newsletters 

With more and more marketing happening within the walled gardens of social media, there’s one channel where businesses remain in control over who sees what messages. What’s more, it’s pretty much free.

Email marketing, including e-newsletters, continues to be a crucial tool for building deep relationships with both existing and potential customers. Yet for many businesses, they’re either underutilised or perhaps worse, hastily cobbled together at the end of every month just so that something gets sent out.

In this episode of the Marketing Freed podcast, marketing therapist, Lenka Koppova shares why she feels every business needs to use newsletters as part of their marketing, along with tips on how to make them an effective part of your marketing toolkit.

In this episode, we discuss:

Where newsletters fit in the customer journey
What content will resonate with your audience
How frequently you should send your newsletters to your list
How to gain feedback and interaction from your newsletter subscribers



In a world filled with constant, on-demand distractions, it has become near-impossible for business owners to effectively cut through the noise to reach their customers, something Donald Miller knows first-hand.

In this book, he shares the proven system he has created to help you engage and truly influence customers. The StoryBrand process is a proven solution to the struggle business leaders face when talking about their companies. Without a clear, distinct message, customers will not understand what you can do for them and are unwilling to engage, causing you to lose potential sales, opportunities for customer engagement, and much more.



Episode Transcript
Episode transcript

📍 This week on marketing freed. I’m joined by Lenka Koppova marketing therapist for health and well being professionals Lenka Welcome. Great to have you on the show Great stuff. Look, to start things off, do you want to just dive into a little bit about your background, your career and how you’ve ended up working independently in your role as a marketer?

Yeah, absolutely. So I started freelancing I think 10 years ago after a few, I would say unsuccessful attempts to fit in the company culture in marketing agencies just didn’t seem to be my thing. So I started freelancing. Back then I started doing the typical social media management, hands on, lots of clients, content creation, and over time, my role, my responsibilities, my business has evolved to do more strategic growth, to do more strategy, get involved with branding, tone of voice, planning, all sorts of things.

digital marketing tactics. And in the past couple of years, especially since the pandemic, I would say due to my personal journey and my personal interest that I’ve really refreshed going into psychology and going into neuroscience and really dive deep into my health and being. I realized that I love working with coaches and other health and well being professionals, mostly because I just get to talk about health and being and the marketing.

But I talk about, the things that I’m passionate about and I speak their language like I understand enough. So I’m almost like I’m not a qualified health coach, but I know enough to really have a relevant conversations with them. So I ended up rebranding and using the phrase marketing therapist because it sounded unique.

And for me, I am creating a safe space. I’m bringing in some of the therapy and coaching and. health and well being aspects into working on marketing. Marketing can be pretty scary and be overwhelming. There’s lots of fear and anxiety. And I wanted to make sure that my clients really feel that they’re in safe hands, that everything is okay.

There will be no judgment, no pressure. And that at the end of the day, they’re going to learn how to have fun with marketing. So then they can, get visible in front of the right people and build thriving businesses, which is ultimately what I really want to help people with. But interestingly enough, I was having a conversation just a couple of days ago, with, somebody, Fifi Mason, who’s going to appear on the show in a couple of weeks.

and, she, she’s a self confessed introvert. And so she’s, now specializing in helping people who they’ve got something interesting to say, perhaps they’ve got a technical, maybe an engineering type background. So they’re not necessarily the people that are used to putting themselves out there and it’s helping make sure that they’re not self silencing.

It’s giving them the confidence that actually. It shouldn’t be that scary. It’s about making sure that they feel confident in getting their opinions across and that they do have something valuable to add. something else you mentioned was, you previously worked at a few different agencies, but it never never really stuck.

Do you want to just maybe elaborate on why that might be and why you’ve chosen to work independently? There was something about company culture that even though marketing agencies look very cool and sexy from the outside, you have all the company perks, there, at least in those agencies I was involved in, there was always a bit of a toxic culture in there that it was by default that you worked overtime, that, just a fit for me as a human with interest and alignment.

With those companies, it just wasn’t there. And when I then job hunted and tried to find another job, I almost always talked myself out of it, that it just felt like this kind of a restriction for me, I work in social media marketing, which means I can work anywhere, anytime. And the ad being in marketing agency where I have to go to the office, I don’t have any flexibility.

My line manager sitting next to me tells me, don’t talk to me, just Skype me or message me. I’m like, I have to be in the office, but I cannot talk to you in person. You spend most of your time within your working hours, like scrolling Tinder or go shopping on I don’t know where, and then you’re spending hour or two overtime and because I’m clocking just in time, because I do my work head down, Then you see me as not good enough.

And it’s the thing, I was fired. from the last agency job I had, I was fired because I wasn’t good enough based on their standards. Yeah, it’s, it’s something I hear quite a lot about toxic cultures at agencies. I’m sure there are ones where the culture is absolutely fantastic and people are thriving in their working lives and their careers.

But my only experience echoes what you’ve described. So my, one of my very first jobs after leaving university was for a smallish marketing agency. It was probably about 20 employees at the time. And they specialized, in actually quite large. tech companies, but everything that you’ve described about a sort of presenteeism culture and it being really quite toxic, completely echo everything you’ve said.

at the time, and I fully accept I was very, junior at the time, and this is going back, so allow for a bit of inflation, but I was being paid a pittance. It was about £17, 000 a year. I was being charged out at hundreds and hundreds of pounds per day and seeing a tiny fraction of that.

but the culture there was like, all right, you, if you’re not there at eight o’clock, I know that the contract says. Workday starts at nine, but really you’ve got to be there at eight and By the way, the expectation was you were there till about seven No one ever took lunch And if you were the first person to leave your punishment was you’re the person that has to go around collecting all the plates and mugs And everything and do the washing up before everyone because clearly you’ve not got enough on.

Oh, it was horrible And to be honest, I only lasted about six months there But, I also think it’s not always the best way. In fact, it’s very rarely the best way for people to engage with a marketing third party is going through the agency route because they’re a business ultimately. And they’re trying to make money out of the resources that they have, the resources being the people.

So my example of me being on a being paid a pittance, but being charged out at hundreds and hundreds of pounds, it makes sense from the agency’s perspective, doesn’t it? Because they’ve got to make a profit on me. I didn’t know my. Backside from my elbow at the time. So the client wasn’t getting a great service either, but enough about my rant against agencies like when we spoke before, we settled on the topic of you’re going to explain the benefits and talk about why newsletters are so good for businesses to be To be using as part of their marketing mix.

it’d be great I know everyone on the on the podcast is going to understand what Email newsletter is but perhaps you could just describe or talk about a bit of the benefits and why you feel so strongly that There’s such a great tool for marketing. So I want to start with a bit of a context. I want to make it very clear that I come from service provider perspective There are different approaches that a service provider to a product based business would take. It doesn’t necessarily mean if you’re B2B, B2C, that it’s okay. But when you’re providing a service, you will run the business differently than if you run a product based company.

So that’s one thing that it will be more relevant to service provider. Another little background and kind of an overview, it’s just explain what we mean when we say use letters. It often is mixed up and misunderstood. Newsletters come under email marketing. Email marketing is this umbrella, and often we associate email marketing with newsletters.

But newsletters are just one subset of email marketing. Email marketing is a digital marketing strategy. Within email marketing, we can have purchase emails, we can have sales emails, promotional emails, information bulletins, abandoned card, lots of different kind of email campaigns, onboarding campaigns, welcome campaigns.

But newsletters are a special type of emails that is regular. They can be. Daily, weekly, monthly, quarterly, but there is some sort of a regularity to it and they are designed to sit more in the middle part of our funnel, in the middle part of our customer journey to take people from awareness on social media to the consideration stage, to education, entertainment.

building relationship. It’s designed to nourish our audience with information because then yes, we can include some promotions in there and we can include some information about our services. But by default, to me, newsletter is about nourishment, about strengthening the relationship. And when I talk about relationship, beauty, the magic of newsletters, to me, it’s in the fact that, so far, our inbox is the only place in the digital world where we don’t have an algorithm.

That would be controlling who we see, when we see it. When we go to social media, when you go even to websites, there is an algorithm. There is someone somehow controlling when, where, who is going to see our content. If we give permission to be emailed, to give out our email to someone to access our inbox, we are pretty sure that we are going to see the email when it was sent.

It lands there at a certain time. So to me, that is a strong, motivator to have a newsletter, to ask for this permission, to cherish this relationship with people. Because I have much higher chance of them opening and reading and engaging with me. That’s great. Thank you. It makes total sense.

Everything you’ve said and your point about owning that platform and not being governed by algorithms, I think is so important. The other day I was having a conversation with. Is the head of marketing for, it’s an association, for the medical industry. they provide accreditation and training for biomedical scientists and in the depths of the Covid Pandemic, they were banned from using Twitter.

They, their account was blocked because they mentioned Covid in there and they absolutely had something. Important to be saying they were well qualified. It wasn’t spammy. They weren’t selling snake oil or anything, but they were blocked and they’re good luck trying to get hold of customer service and unblock your account.

And it took them. I think they said it was about six months before they’re allowed to start using it again. And if they don’t have their own email contact list that they’re able to communicate with, they’re lost. I think it was also really important about you talking about where it fits in that customer relationship as well.

it’d be great. to understand from you about how people should go around planning their newsletter with that in mind. Yeah, so I totally agree. We always say in marketing, don’t build your house on a rented land. And social media is that rented land with hacks and bots and spam everywhere. It’s just so unpredictable.

Like you never know when and why, usually for no good reason whatsoever. You can lose access to your Instagram with thousands of followers. So it is a security safety net for the business is a very important business asset to have your own mailing list that you own. Where newsletters fit on the customer journey for me, it’s in the middle of the funnel.

So usually you would use something like social media for the awareness piece. To get more visible, to put yourself, your brand, your message in front of your ideal customers. You would be on all sorts of platform, or you would use tools like blocks on your website through SEO, through influencer marketing or YouTube or video or podcast where you are trying to reach as many people as possible to get the message out there.

But from there, people have very limited attention span. So it’s very fast. It’s very, not superficial, but it’s something that can grab their attention, that can showcase your brand. But you often don’t have the time and space and attention to bring it in, to really go deep. In blog posts, yes, you can. But with social media, it’s usually very superficial, very short, very fast.

And it’s where email, for me, newsletter, is a beautiful place then to take them from awareness into consideration. Because I can email them, they have more time. Like, when we open our inboxes, we are already in the mindset of, those emails are going to take a while. I’m going to strategically choose which ones I’m going to pay attention.

And I expect to learn something new. understand the topic of the newsletter a bit better or at least be informed that there is a new blog post on the website where I can go and find out more or go to a podcast and listen to find out more. So it is all about the consideration. It’s all about bringing in more people who really are willing and interested.

We often use newsletters as the Hand raiser kind of a marketing where we ask people to join the newsletter with the intention. Are you interested to find out more than raise a hand and we’re going to send you one. And yes, we use tools and tactics like lead magnets and eBooks and freebies and stuff like that to be the hand raiser, to be the specific reason why people would join our mailing list.

Or even simply asking people, I have a newsletter about X, Y, and Z. You’re going to learn X, Y, and Z. You’re going to be informed about this and this. Do you want it? Raise a hand. You’re going to get it. And from there, you can use newsletter to promote and sell, but you can also then create separate email campaigns that are not this patterned, formulaic, pre templated almost type of a message that is a specific promotional campaign where you sell.

You inform, you try to convert. So newsletters would not necessarily be the ones to go to the end journey where we try to convert. Then I would say it’s more of a promotional sales campaign. But it would be at the stage of nourishment.

Sorry, I lost you for a moment there, Lenka. You’re talking about, you wouldn’t necessarily use it as a promotional sales campaign. Yeah, I think that’s pretty much the end.

Okay. Yeah. Sorry for interrupting. I wouldn’t use it. I wouldn’t use it as a tool to sell, even though you can promote. I would use it as a way to get people close to the door, to get them informed, to get them ready. And then I would have a separate campaign that’s a promotional campaign. Because newsletters often will have a pattern, they will have a template, they will have a certain look and feel that will repeat on a weekly, monthly basis.

They will have a certain style. There are all sorts of different styles of newsletters you can have. It can be the Letter, a stream of consciousness, storytelling, a newsletter. It can be more curated, either from your own resources or even third party resources. Pull in news and tips and tricks.

It could be almost like a case study where you really take it as a blog post case study and you educate people and you give them really all the bits and bobs and things that they need to learn. It’s up to you, you can mix and match, you can have different Let’s say templates and different parts of the newsletter, we would look at 10 different modules, and then we would have a modular newsletter, and each month or each time we send a newsletter, we would look at all the 10 modules we have, and we say, these three are forever the cornerstones, but these seven, we can mix and match.

Do we have an event? Do we have a promotion? Do we have a podcast? Is there something kind of ad hoc that we want to add in? Do we have a quote? Do we have a testimonial? We can mix and match. We can design our own kind of modules, themes, and then as we go, we can mix and match. But on an overall basis, a newsletter will always have some recognition of similarity.

Yeah, that’s really interesting. Thank you. and just want to go back to a couple of points you mentioned. something you said that newsletters are especially good for is building that ongoing relationship. So it’s not a direct sales. Tactic necessarily. And I’ve seen in the past where you might promote whatever it is, an event, a newsletter, an event or a webinar or some kind of call to action in a newsletter.

And the, even though it might be going out to the same list of people, actually the number of people taking any action, the number of people clicking through and subscribing to that or registering for the event is much, much reduced compared to a solace email campaign. but it’s still, I think, valuable just to raise awareness that these things, are going on.

You also mentioned about, there’s other tactics that marketers use of getting people to raise a hand. So it might be they’ve registered for a webinar or downloaded a paper or a case study, etc. What are your views on, whether anybody who’s taken any action and entered your orbit, should they all end up on a newsletter list?

Or actually, should you only be getting people onto a newsletter list where they’ve, definitely subscribed? that’s a grey zone area, but obviously we have GDPR in place now that says clearly how we should treat people’s emails and what we can and cannot do. And I’m not a GDPR lawyer specialist, so I don’t want to get deftly into the rabbit hole, but I come from it from a moral, ethical perspective.

If I have a small newsletter, I’m a small company, and I know I’m not going to be spamming people every day. And my newsletter is very aligned with the freebie. It just expands on my freebie. Then, as far as I inform the people that this is what I’m doing. if you sign up to my newsletter, you are going to, if you sign up to my ebook, you’re going to receive my monthly newsletter.

And I give them the option to unsubscribe, then I would see it as plausible. I would prefer for people to grow their newsletter by just promoting a newsletter. And have a newsletter so strong and so distinctive and so meaningful that people want to be on the newsletter with no hook needed. But sometimes newsletter is an afterthought.

Sometimes newsletter is, oh, I have to have a newsletter, so I’m going to have a newsletter. But I’m going to use all these freebies that are more specifically designed for a purpose. They are more persuasive and interesting to people to get people onto the newsletter. And the newsletter, it might be frequent.

It might be valuable, but there’s almost no brand, no soul, no purpose, no bigger picture structure to it. And I think that’s where lots of newsletters fail short because you go to the website and it says, sign up for a newsletter for the latest tips and tricks and use. And I’m like, Everyone does that.

tell me something more. Tell me why. Tell me what transformation, purpose, does your newsletter have? What’s in it for me? And if you can do that, then It’s much more easier to convince people to sign up without using lead magnets and freebies as a sign up funnel. And just, your point about using newsletters to build a relationship with people, obviously that’s going to happen over time, gradually.

Do you have a view on how frequently newsletters should be sent? I might be a bit controversial in how frequently. I would say as frequently as you can send something of a value. That’s very vague. I know. I would say depending on the size of your company, the size of your content machine, everything, but it comes out.

If you’re talking about building quality relationship, then I’d rather you send fewer newsletters and only send that when you have something meaningful to say, because that will resonate with people more. But at the same time, I know that it comes down to practice. It comes down to putting in the reps, showing up regularly.

And testing and experimenting and showing up and building the awareness. I would say for everyone, you need to find your own sweet spot. Obviously, the more frequently you send your newsletter, if it’s weekly, the more opportunities you then have to sell. So we would often recommend if you’re sending a weekly newsletter, you also are almost like buying a virtual credit to be able to then sell, send more sales promotional email.

Because if I send once a month, a newsletter. Then I don’t want to send a weekly sales promotional email because the balance wouldn’t be right. But if I sent a weekly valuable newsletter, then I can on weekly fortnightly basis, send a direct sales email. And it will be different if you have a short term campaign.

If there is a short term launch or promotional campaign, you can increase the frequency of your sales emails, but on an ongoing basis, we’re looking for a sweet spot between. newsletter, which is, as you said, more about the nourishment and the conversion rate is not going to be there as much. There may be a little, but not as much.

And then accompanied with a promotional sales email. So then it comes down to what’s your capacity, what you can create to provide value and have something of a high quality. But also if you want to sell as a next to it, to have a sales campaign running. Simultaneously, you need to balance the frequency of both.

Yeah, it’s a difficult balance, isn’t it? And I’ve certainly been more than once in situations where the company I’m working for ends up sending a newsletter on a, whatever it is, a monthly or maybe even a weekly basis. And you put that schedule in place and you stick to it because full well that if you don’t, it will never get done.

I suppose the reason we ended up in that position Is it actually a result of not really having anything valuable to say and scrabbling around to try and find things that we plausible enough that it’s semi newsworthy but actually it’s not it’s really self serving it’s trying to increase sales it’s you know it’s not news at all but it’s promoting something only serves us and not necessarily our customers.

And I suppose that’s the ultimate, the ultimate problem with the situation we got into. do you have any thoughts on the different styles of the newsletter that you might send? Because I’ve seen, in my inbox. A whole range of different types of newsletters. Sometimes it’s really visual.

Sometimes it’s text based only. I know which ones I tend to read, but I don’t know with your experience, which ones you’re seeing perform best. it again, the easy answer is it depends. There is a sweet spot between what is your brand? What are the values and tone of voice and the personality of your brand?

What really fits you better? But also a bit of a market research to understand what it is that your customers want, what do they prefer and find some sort of overlap between those two. So some people are more naturally good at writing this kind of stream of consciousness, letter style, and it fits their brand.

It’s a personal brand. It’s very much based on their personality, on their life. So them telling stories is the way to educate and it fits better. If it’s a bigger organization and there’s a lot more other content, and we want to do something more curated, then that fits better with having the modular kind of, that we will have multiple things here and there.

If your brand is all about simplicity and minimalism, then having the bare minimum, like the shortest ever newsletter, with only a couple words here and there, that’s still a newsletter. Newsletter doesn’t have to be an essay long. It can be very short and to the point. if that’s your brand. So my opinion is to find out what really fits you, your brand, and also pay attention to what it is that your customers want, what resonates with them, how they prefer to learn, what kind of information they expect from you from this newsletter.

Yeah, couldn’t agree more. And it’s interesting you say that they don’t always need to be reams and reams, they don’t need to be long. I, again, knowing the sorts of emails that I tend to engage with and spend a bit of time reading, often they don’t look like your archetypal newsletter and they’re quite short and they, maybe it is sent on a weekly basis, but it feels much more like the kind of round robin letter that you might get from a long lost friend or a family member that’s giving you an update on what they’ve been up to on their travels or since you last, last saw them.

And it’s the content that actually I end up looking forward to getting. It doesn’t feel like I’m being sold to. And even though I’ve never met these people, it feels like I know them. I think it’s, a really interesting approach, to take with that. Do you have, any tactics? I know it’s going to, I guess the.

Correct answer is, again, it will depend on your audience, but do you have any tactics that you might recommend people at least experiment with so that they start getting some data on things like open rates and click through rates for their newsletters, things like what maybe they should include in the subject line, anything like that.

yeah, as you said, it depends and experimentation comes down to, again, what is your style? So when it comes to headlines, yes, we can look at working with copywriters and some of the copywriting tricks of use numbers, use power words, use unusual words. We are luckily living in a world with lots of technology, so we have things like headline analyzers.

We can put in our headlines and get a bit of feedback and see how we can tweak them. We can do A, B testing campaigns with having two different kinds of headlines and see which one performs better so we can learn. Usually headlines or hooks will either be really persuasive when they’re obscure, but they’re just weird.

They don’t make sense and they really interrupt our pattern of scrolling. We’re like, Okay. What the hell do they mean by that? If there is a very pain pointed kind of problem pointed question that resonates when we’re reflecting on the problem, the challenge that our customers have, and where we’re pressing the pain point.

Again, that’s a ethically questionable tactic in marketing. It’s one of those tactics. Or it is then the solution. It is the very bold promise statement of. achieve this, have this, feel this, accomplish this. and then numbers, if we’re doing a bit of a list, then having, five tips to do this, achieve this.

But if you can think about it originally of Not using 5, but maybe have 5. 5. Again, interrupt the common pattern. Try to think differently about that. Yeah, and I think you also end up having to be quite careful with what you do. I think trying to build some consistency in your approach makes a lot of sense.

I’ve certainly had experiences where, Say, for example, we were sending newsletters to our customers. We had a definite customer list. It wasn’t promotional. It was genuinely there to inform people about updates to a platform and the, the customer team were quite, unimpressed with the open rate.

It wasn’t anything terrible, but it was pretty typical for an email campaign. It would have been in the twenties or thirties of percent that were being opened by our customers, which is fine. but then occasionally there were notifications like, you know, planned maintenance or urgent. you have to take these steps because otherwise you won’t be able to run payroll next month.

And all of a sudden, unsurprisingly, the open rate goes from 20, 30 percent to 80 percent or even higher. and we ended up having this brainstorming session about how can we do more of this? And the correct answer isn’t that you put urgent. You must take these steps in every subject line because otherwise everyone’s going to ignore the ones where it genuinely is urgent, right?

You just have to be very careful on the metrics that you’re measuring. There’s a thing like every single email you send out or be it social media posts or anything of that matter has its own purpose, has, it should have its own goal and purpose, which means that the goals and the metrics we’re going to be measuring will be different.

So yes, if we have a super important announcement that it’s crucial for people to see, then the headline needs to be clear about that. And it’s very likely that people will open it. If we, newsletters are on an ongoing basis, so we’re not necessarily looking at having the most ridiculous open rates, we are looking to have consistency, to have consistent, reasonably high open rates, to have, if there is a link, to have a click through rate, to have as little unsubscribes as possible.

To have new people joining in and to potentially get some qualitative feedback to get people replying, saying this was helpful, replying, saying how great it was giving you testimonial, talking about it on social media and sharing it. the metric of open rate is not always necessarily the key metric that really is the most telling one.

It’s an interesting point about getting feedback from your recipients. I’ve, so personally, I haven’t ever, set up an email newsletter with the intention that it’s there to get replies from anybody. How would you go about actually implementing that? It comes down to, again, what business you’re in.

But if you’re talking service providers, and me specifically working with coaches and health and being professionals and healers, the relationship, the trust, the connection you have with the person, that is the number one priority. So then it’s not surprising that when you send Newsletters that are either your story, your journey, sharing some valuable tips and tricks, sharing some valuable things, or even in me, with me, I have a newsletter that gives marketing tips, but it’s with this kind of a new, joyful, breaking the rules, figuring things out, storytelling approach.

I often get replies from people saying this was helpful. I didn’t know that, giving me feedback on my newsletter, which is also lovely. I don’t mind, like people telling me, maybe I could appreciate a bit more this. I would appreciate more that. If there is a question, often, Why we get replies is we encourage people, we tell people, we genuinely want to hear from you.

There is a prompt, there is a question, and then over time these are not the rhetorical question. If we are putting in the effort to build a relationship, people are going to start picking up these hints. And they will take the time and effort to reply back, sometimes, quite essays. I think the key thing is, you’ve just got to ask sometimes.

You’ve got those relationships. Not everyone’s going to respond, but just find out. Just find out what makes people tick. Find out what they enjoy, and incorporate that into the content that you’re producing. thank you. I’m going to put you on the spot a little bit, because this didn’t come up in our pre interview.

But, recently, Google and Yahoo have announced and even introduced some measures to protect people’s inboxes from receiving spam. Are there any tips and tricks that you would recommend people are taking now to make sure that their emails are not flagged and falling foul of these measures? obviously, check those messages from Google and Yahoo, read it.

I know it’s annoying. Pay attention to it, but don’t dismiss it. Have a look and read. If they’re asking you to do something, to verify something, do that, but on a more human level, just be a decent human being that comes forward with, again, morals and standards of trying to be helpful. Don’t buy lists, don’t send too many emails, don’t spam people, don’t overwhelm people, don’t use any, nasty third party apps that would hack stuff.

When you use AI, use it, again, ethically and reasonably, and I think if you do that, you should be safe. I love it. What a point to end on. Be a decent human being. I think, yeah, if everybody was to do that, we would all go a long way. Before we go, Lenka, I’m asking everybody for one marketing book recommendation that you would like everybody to read and why that’s impacted your life.

My favorite marketing book is Building a Story Brand by Dolore Miller, which is all about clarifying your message so customers will listen. It takes you through the story brand framework, which helps you to tell a story of your brand. You take your customers as the heroes on the journey, overcoming obstacles and finding success and becoming this new version.

And there are some great tips on how to implement it on your website, on your newsletter, and across messaging. So I would highly recommend building a story brand to anyone. It’s easy to read, very practical, beautiful marketing book. Super stuff. Thank you very much. Lenka, how can people find you online?

How can they connect with you? So given that I have a quite unusual name, that’s not that common, if people search for Lenka Koppova, double P, then it’s quite likely that they’re going to find me. They can find me on LinkedIn, they can find my website, www. lenkakoppova. com, or they can go and find my newsletter called Marketing Joy.

Which is where I take them on a journey of finding more fun in marketing, figuring out your way of doing marketing and learning some of those rules and shoulds that are common in marketing and just having fun with it. Perfect. Thank you very much. Lenka, look, I’ve absolutely loved this conversation.

I’ve learned a ton from it. I have to confess, I don’t have a newsletter. It’s one of these situations where it’s the cobbler’s children have no shoes. I know that I need to get around to doing it because I’m so reliant on my own network and using LinkedIn at the moment. So it’s definitely something that I’m going to pledge to get around to doing this year.

But Lenka, great to see you and thank you so much for taking part. Thanks for having me. Lovely to be here. Bye everyone.